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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) The "Deep State" "Mid-Level Government" "The Swamp" (Read 1311 times)
Don_G
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Re: The "Deep State" "Mid-Level Government" "The Swamp"
Reply #10 - Dec 9th, 2017 at 1:04pm
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burnsred wrote on Dec 6th, 2017 at 9:10pm:
Well, of course he's only had less than a year in office.  He's certainly done more in that time to bring about positive change than any previous president since Reagan.


A year in office, yes. The positive change? No, it's not positive but time is needed to make or break your point. In any case it's too non-specific to understand on this discussion.

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Trump firing a lying bureaucrat who was popular with other lying bureaucrats is obstruction of justice? 


Your point is unsophisticated and misses the point completely. It's the perception of what Trump did by firing Comey that matters. So I'll explain not what I want to be but what is. The deep state (Comey was a major part) is now completely aligned against Trump. The Dems support the deep state but the Repubs do also. They're patriotic citizens who are obviously not going to turn thumbs down on the FBI, CiA, and the others. And so Trump has made a bad choice by tring to take them on.

If the people were convinced that Comey was/is a lying bureauocrat then you would be right. But the fact is, they don't. And fwiw, the Repubs aren't trying to promote the notion with any feeling or vigour.

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So you criticize "my country" for making Russia the enemy again and you also criticize Trump for not making Russia the enemy?  Sounds like your usual level of consistency.



No, but I'll offer my explanation and I think it has some merit for you to consider. Russia/Putin has something big on Trump and Trump is now under Russia's thumb. I know it's not going to be a palatable idea for you to accept but I say it's the most likely thing that has happened.

If you reject that then you are left with having to think that Trump has a special place in his heart for Russia/Putin for some reason. That reason has got to be Trump taking the high road and I don't need to explain the details of what that means. (unless you ask)

Personally, I wish it were not so and Trump was genuinely taking the high road of foreign affairs with Russia. I've even tried to imagine why he could possibly be trying to do that. I've considered an attempt to isolate China but that doesn't work.

I'll leave it at that for now to see if you want to pick up on it and present your argument for Trump.

edit: One more point I should have made is that Trump has no American friends that are with him on foreign affairs with Russia. He's by himself and sadly he will fail. That's just a fact! If he could, Trump would get this albatross off his neck. Maybe we can discuss what this albatross could be? My guess is it's sex related.
  
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burnsred
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Re: The "Deep State" "Mid-Level Government" "The Swamp"
Reply #11 - Dec 9th, 2017 at 1:26pm
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Don_G wrote on Dec 9th, 2017 at 1:04pm:
A year in office, yes. The positive change? No, it's not positive but time is needed to make or break your point. In any case it's too non-specific to understand on this discussion.


Oh.

So you're saying that making a lot of vague statements and refusing to provide examples that can be debated is not good discussion forum debate?  Interesting.  I have a very instructive reply to that which I will post on another thread coming up since I'm pressed for time right now

I also have several extremely good examples of the benefits Trump has brought.  You can find them on this website:

https://www.donaldjtrump.com/

Let me know when you've read that site very thoroughly so we can debate on a level playing field.



Quote:
Your point is unsophisticated and misses the point completely. It's the perception of what Trump did by firing Comey that matters.
Why is perception more important than the truth?  When perception so clearly divorced from truth, wouldn't a more professional media act to correct that perception instead of facilitating that impression for political gain on behalf of their favored party?

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So I'll explain not what I want to be but what is. The deep state (Comey was a major part) is now completely aligned against Trump. The Dems support the deep state but the Repubs do also. They're patriotic citizens who are obviously not going to turn thumbs down on the FBI, CiA, and the others. And so Trump has made a bad choice by tring to take them on.
It is a David and Goliath battle and even his detractors should admire him for being willing to take on our giant, out of control government.  David and Goliath was a fluke.  In the overwhelming majority of such a mismatch, the giant would have squished David like a bug.  Maybe the deep state and their cheerleaders in the phony two-party system and the media will do that to Trump.

But not so far, LoL!
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If the people were convinced that Comey was/is a lying bureauocrat then you would be right. But the fact is, they don't. And fwiw, the Repubs aren't trying to promote the notion with any feeling or vigour.
Actually, here's were actually talking to people helps.  I know a lot of  conservatives being from Texas and a lot of Liberals from working around education.  When I've mentioned Comey, none of them have said anything positive about him.  They understand that politicians and government officials lie constantly.  Being Cons or Libs, they just prefer the liars that agree with their politics.


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No, but I'll offer my explanation and I think it has some merit for you to consider. Russia/Putin has something big on Trump and Trump is now under Russia's thumb. I know it's not going to be a palatable idea for you to accept but I say it's the most likely thing that has happened.

If you reject that then you are left with having to think that Trump has a special place in his heart for Russia/Putin for some reason. That reason has got to be Trump taking the high road and I don't need to explain the details of what that means. (unless you ask)
I don't know what that means but it's ok if you don't explain it.


Quote:
Personally, I wish it were not so and Trump was genuinely taking the high road of foreign affairs with Russia. I've even tried to imagine why he could possibly be trying to do that. I've considered an attempt to isolate China but that doesn't work.

I'll leave it at that for now to see if you want to pick up on it and present your argument for Trump.
I'm arguing that some of Trump's actions have had positive benefit. 

His cancelling cumbersome and harmful regulations has the immediate and obvious benefit of removing the harm and cumbersomeness.  If you have any way to dispute that, I'd like to read about it.

He really needs to pick up the pace on that, though.  He's making the classic statist mistake of thinking that it's fine for government to be arbitrary and spring taxes and other crippling mandates on citizens/taxpayers/job creators, but we have to be veeeery careful in cancelling a government regulation or program because that could "upset things" or whatever. 
  
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Don_G
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Re: The "Deep State" "Mid-Level Government" "The Swamp"
Reply #12 - Dec 9th, 2017 at 1:36pm
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burnsred wrote on Dec 9th, 2017 at 1:26pm:
Oh.

So you're saying that making a lot of vague statements and refusing to provide examples that can be debated is not good discussion forum debate?  Interesting.  I have a very instructive reply to that which I will post on another thread coming up since I'm pressed for time right now

I also have several extremely good examples of the benefits Trump has brought.  You can find them on this website:

https://www.donaldjtrump.com/

Let me know when you've read that site very thoroughly so we can debate on a level playing field.



Why is perception more important than the truth?  When perception so clearly divorced from truth, wouldn't a more professional media act to correct that perception instead of facilitating that impression for political gain on behalf of their favored party?

It is a David and Goliath battle and even his detractors should admire him for being willing to take on our giant, out of control government.  David and Goliath was a fluke.  In the overwhelming majority of such a mismatch, the giant would have squished David like a bug.  Maybe the deep state and their cheerleaders in the phony two-party system and the media will do that to Trump.

But not so far, LoL!
Actually, here's were actually talking to people helps.  I know a lot of  conservatives being from Texas and a lot of Liberals from working around education.  When I've mentioned Comey, none of them have said anything positive about him.  They understand that politicians and government officials lie constantly.  Being Cons or Libs, they just prefer the liars that agree with their politics.


I don't know what that means but it's ok if you don't explain it.


I'm arguing that some of Trump's actions have had positive benefit. 

His cancelling cumbersome and harmful regulations has the immediate and obvious benefit of removing the harm and cumbersomeness.  If you have any way to dispute that, I'd like to read about it.

He really needs to pick up the pace on that, though.  He's making the classic statist mistake of thinking that it's fine for government to be arbitrary and spring taxes and other crippling mandates on citizens/taxpayers/job creators, but we have to be veeeery careful in cancelling a government regulation or program because that could "upset things" or whatever. 


And so I've read your arguments. You're making the mistake in that you don't understand or believe that which I wish were true, as opposed to what I believe is true.

On foreign affairs, which is my almost exclusive interest, I wish that Trump could succeed in his fight against his country's people and the entire deep state. I just understand that is not going to be possible.

State your argument to which you are alluding. It can't do any harm.
  
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Jeff
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Re: The "Deep State" "Mid-Level Government" "The Swamp"
Reply #13 - Dec 9th, 2017 at 1:38pm
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burnsred wrote on Dec 9th, 2017 at 1:26pm:
He's making the classic statist mistake of thinking that it's fine for government to be arbitrary and spring taxes and other crippling mandates on citizens/taxpayers/job creators, but we have to be veeeery careful in cancelling a government regulation or program because that could "upset things" or whatever. 
Good point. My only quibble is I think the statists know exactly what they are doing. There is no mistake at all that they want to make it as hard as possible to start or run a business or find a job or plan your economic future.
  
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Re: The "Deep State" "Mid-Level Government" "The Swamp"
Reply #14 - Dec 9th, 2017 at 2:07pm
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Tom Palven wrote on Dec 7th, 2017 at 7:50am:
Steven Pinker made a great case that there is more peace and freedom in the world today than ever before as evidenced by a myriad of such things as fact that we no longer applaud the drawing and quartering of heretics or burning witches at the stake.


Tom, I have the book and am about a third of the way through it. I can make a few comments on it even though they may be premature.

I'm somewhat disappointe in that the section on early religion relies on religious superstitions to make his point just a little too much. That makes those references invalid, even though it does rely on valid examples of that time period. He should have kept in mind that he has to be talking to an atheist majority.

There is some validity in succeeding chapters but then I came to what is referred to as 'the long peace' and hence the nuclear peace as stated. That one example trumped all that came before in the book so thoroughly that I had to put the book down and try to reason through the conclusions he had offered so far.

I knew it has to come so I was getting impatient on how he would handle it. Not very well at all in my opinion as he attempted to reference completely off-topic examples to make his case against the theory that the bomb has saved us for 75 years.

Briefly, I'll insert my opinion here: Violence incresed dramitically with the fall of the Soviet Union and is now decreasing as Russ/China comes on board as super powers. His bood errs in that it's dated and current proof flies in the face of his theories to a great extent. A US led war with Iran has been put on hold but almost assuredly would have resulted in the slaughter of hundreds of thousands had the Russia/China detterence not come into existence.

For that/those reasons, everything else pales in comparison. His figures and his graphs that bring past slaughters into current comparisons become of only secondary importance to the actual facts on the 'Nuclear peace' we are living through.

I'll read another chapter or two and see how or if he can sqaure this with his readers. I fear he's not going to even try. His political agenda of being pro-West appears to be in the way. Quote:
However, the US government doesn't seem to have gotten the memo, continuing to drone emerging politically incorrect  leaders in the Mideast and Pakistan, with recent expansion into sub--Saharan Africa.

And along with increased US incursions abroad, there is an apparent increase of political control of US citizens:

The exposure of Operation Mockingbird showed that the CIA had been operating WITHIN THE US to influence media and control free thought for decades.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mockingbird

But, despite the old adage that if "it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck"  that it might be a duck, the CIA  has been omitted from the Wikipedia list of secret police agencies.


Quote:
It makes one wonder just how much effort the CIA public relations department has made in order to keep the CIA and Mossad off the Wikipedia list which has Bahrain and China on the list; that is, it actually seems more damning that the CIA is not on the list.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_secret_police_organizations

With Operation Mockingbird in mind, can we CONNECT THESE DOTS:

.  On March 12, 2013 James Clapper, as head of all 17 secretive policing agencies, testified under oath before Congress that the CIA handmaiden, the NSA, did not collect information on “a single US citizen.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Clapper

.  Two months later Edward Snowden released Top Secret documents detailing that the NSA spied on over 120 million US citizens.

.  US Senator Lindsey Graham expressed shock that the secret police collected information on him and that he could not obtain the information they had gathered.
http://thehill.com/policy/national-security/339670-graham-gets-emotional-in-publ...

.  A federal court ordered that the remaining undisclosed Kennedy murder documents be released on Oct. 26, 2017, 54 years after the event, with only the US President allowed to block the release of any documents.  Trump said that he wanted to release the remaining thousands of pages of documents, but that the CIA refused and that he “had no choice” in the matter.

If Snowden hadn’t released the top secret NSA documents would we be aware of NSA spying on US citizens today?  

Would we know after 54 years?

Do we really know whether the secret police spy on US citizens now?

Maybe it doesn't really matter, but does the US have the kind of government that Washington, Jefferson, and Madison had in mind?

My opinion is that you're making a big mistake in suggesting that Trump has been prevented by the CIA from releasing the Kennedy files. This is an isolated example of how Trump can be completely onside with the CIA without haveing to be concerned on what Russia/Putiin will think. This, opposed to all other foreign policy politics in which Trump has the axe hanging over his neck, that will fall if he comes onside literally both big parties, the people, and the entire deep state.
  
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kaz
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Re: The "Deep State" "Mid-Level Government" "The Swamp"
Reply #15 - Dec 9th, 2017 at 3:35pm
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Don_G wrote on Dec 9th, 2017 at 1:04pm:
If the people were convinced that Comey was/is a lying bureauocrat then you would be right. But the fact is, they don't


WTF?  Of course people know he's a lying bureaucrat.  That's one of only few things that Republicans and Democrats actually agree on.  Do you pay any attention to what's going on around you while you troll the world?

Don_G wrote on Dec 9th, 2017 at 1:04pm:
Russia/Putin has something big on Trump and Trump is now under Russia's thumb


You are so full of shit
  

Greg Gutfeld - I became a conservative by being around liberals and I became a libertarian by being around conservatives

Matt Stone - I hate conservatives, but I really f'ing hate liberals
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Re: The "Deep State" "Mid-Level Government" "The Swamp"
Reply #16 - Dec 9th, 2017 at 3:36pm
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Don_G wrote on Dec 9th, 2017 at 1:36pm:
On foreign affairs, which is my almost exclusive interest


Um ... no.   Your almost exclusive interest is getting someone else to pay your medical bills.  Or any of your bills
« Last Edit: Dec 9th, 2017 at 6:08pm by kaz »  

Greg Gutfeld - I became a conservative by being around liberals and I became a libertarian by being around conservatives

Matt Stone - I hate conservatives, but I really f'ing hate liberals
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Re: The "Deep State" "Mid-Level Government" "The Swamp"
Reply #17 - Dec 9th, 2017 at 4:54pm
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kaz wrote on Dec 9th, 2017 at 3:35pm:
WTF?  Of course people know he's a lying bureaucrat.  That's one of only few things that Republicans and Democrats actually agree on.  Do you pay any attention to what's going on around you while you troll the world?


You are so full of shit
Grin Grin Grin What you are saying works for me kaz, and the way you are doing it is good too, I think.

Go away disgusted for as long as you want to. You won't miss anything but another batch of disgusting stuff.

Then come back when you feel like it and say things like this. Smiley Thanks.
  
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Re: The "Deep State" "Mid-Level Government" "The Swamp"
Reply #18 - Dec 9th, 2017 at 5:22pm
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Jeff wrote on Dec 9th, 2017 at 4:54pm:
Grin Grin Grin What you are saying works for me kaz, and the way you are doing it is good too, I think.

Go away disgusted for as long as you want to. You won't miss anything but another batch of disgusting stuff.

Then come back when you feel like it and say things like this. Smiley Thanks.


Exactly, you're feeling me now.  When I get tired of the trolling I go and when I'm ready for some banter I come back.  Also I've been busy this fall
  

Greg Gutfeld - I became a conservative by being around liberals and I became a libertarian by being around conservatives

Matt Stone - I hate conservatives, but I really f'ing hate liberals
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Re: The "Deep State" "Mid-Level Government" "The Swamp"
Reply #19 - Dec 9th, 2017 at 5:55pm
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kaz wrote on Dec 9th, 2017 at 5:22pm:
Exactly, you're feeling me now.  When I get tired of the trolling I go and when I'm ready for some banter I come back.  Also I've been busy this fall
Me too, but mostly just thinking about doing things. I've always done that, thought about preparing for spring. I'm going to have a small bonfire! I'm also probably going to have to till the garden three times. And I'm going to spread some lime and fertilizer and, in about half the yard, germination inhibitor.
  
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