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burnsred
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The "Deep State" "Mid-Level Government" "The Swamp"
Dec 6th, 2017 at 1:47pm
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Call it what you want.  They are determined to thwart the process of democracy.  If democracy is an important part of libertarianism, then we should be concerned that the entrenched bureaucracy is so openly and firmly partisan that electing a member of different party to head the executive branch automatically makes that president the enemy of the government. 

The revelations that key senior investigators of the absurd accusation that Trump and Putin colluded to "hack the election" are actually avid pro-Clinton/anti-Trump activists should surprise no one.  Trump put his own choice in to head the FBI but then that choice promptly recused himself, leaving Trump to be "investigated" by those same activists.

Trump had the right idea but he didn't realize how deep and putrid the swamp actually is.  Time for him to fire those senior FBI officials and let them become private investigators on the payroll of the DNC since that is how they are acting anyway.  Maybe they can come up with another "Piss-whore dossier."

  
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Don_G
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Re: The "Deep State" "Mid-Level Government" "The Swamp"
Reply #1 - Dec 6th, 2017 at 2:11pm
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burnsred wrote on Dec 6th, 2017 at 1:47pm:
Call it what you want.  They are determined to thwart the process of democracy.  If democracy is an important part of libertarianism, then we should be concerned that the entrenched bureaucracy is so openly and firmly partisan that electing a member of different party to head the executive branch automatically makes that president the enemy of the government. 

The revelations that key senior investigators of the absurd accusation that Trump and Putin colluded to "hack the election" are actually avid pro-Clinton/anti-Trump activists should surprise no one.  Trump put his own choice in to head the FBI but then that choice promptly recused himself, leaving Trump to be "investigated" by those same activists.

Trump had the right idea but he didn't realize how deep and putrid the swamp actually is.  Time for him to fire those senior FBI officials and let them become private investigators on the payroll of the DNC since that is how they are acting anyway.  Maybe they can come up with another "Piss-whore dossier."

 


If everything you say is true, and I don't believe it is, the fact is that Trump thought he could take on the deep state and he learned he couldn't.

Regardless of the Trump/Clinton issue, on which I have a lot to say, Trump made a fatal mistake when he fired Comey. He couldn't have done worse!

Comey had/has a stellar reputation and was loved by his peers within the FBI. That can't be viewed as anything but obstruction of justice. And now it's coming home like the chickens.

I have a lot to say and a lot of sympathy for the Trump stance on Russia. Or at least, a lot of sympathy for the cause, even though I'm quite convinced that it's not genuine with Trump.

Trump pretty obviously resorted to aid from Russia in order to be elected. That had nothing to do with Clinton. And also, it's worth stating that it's not out of the ordinary for politics and/or politicians in your country to stoop to any measures similar, dissimilar, or of the general sort.

A thorough discussion is sorely needed. But one thing you may want to acknowledge right now is that Trump will stand alone on support of Russia. The Democrats are clearly maing hay on the issue but the Republicans are silently, completley with them.

Your country has chosen to make Russia the enemy again, even after communism is gone and the Soviet Union no longer exists.
  
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burnsred
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Re: The "Deep State" "Mid-Level Government" "The Swamp"
Reply #2 - Dec 6th, 2017 at 9:10pm
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Don_G wrote on Dec 6th, 2017 at 2:11pm:
If everything you say is true, and I don't believe it is, the fact is that Trump thought he could take on the deep state and he learned he couldn't.
Well, of course he's only had less than a year in office.  He's certainly done more in that time to bring about positive change than any previous president since Reagan.

Quote:
Regardless of the Trump/Clinton issue, on which I have a lot to say, Trump made a fatal mistake when he fired Comey. He couldn't have done worse!

Comey had/has a stellar reputation and was loved by his peers within the FBI. That can't be viewed as anything but obstruction of justice. And now it's coming home like the chickens.
Trump firing a lying bureaucrat who was popular with other lying bureaucrats is obstruction of justice? 

Quote:
I have a lot to say and a lot of sympathy for the Trump stance on Russia. Or at least, a lot of sympathy for the cause, even though I'm quite convinced that it's not genuine with Trump.

Trump pretty obviously resorted to aid from Russia in order to be elected. That had nothing to do with Clinton. And also, it's worth stating that it's not out of the ordinary for politics and/or politicians in your country to stoop to any measures similar, dissimilar, or of the general sort.

A thorough discussion is sorely needed. But one thing you may want to acknowledge right now is that Trump will stand alone on support of Russia. The Democrats are clearly maing hay on the issue but the Republicans are silently, completley with them.

Your country has chosen to make Russia the enemy again, even after communism is gone and the Soviet Union no longer exists.
So you criticize "my country" for making Russia the enemy again and you also criticize Trump for not making Russia the enemy?  Sounds like your usual level of consistency.

  
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Tom Palven
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Re: The "Deep State" "Mid-Level Government" "The Swamp"
Reply #3 - Dec 7th, 2017 at 7:50am
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Steven Pinker made a great case that there is more peace and freedom in the world today than ever before as evidenced by a myriad of such things as fact that we no longer applaud the drawing and quartering of heretics or burning witches at the stake.

However, the US government doesn't seem to have gotten the memo, continuing to drone emerging politically incorrect  leaders in the Mideast and Pakistan, with recent expansion into sub--Saharan Africa.

And along with increased US incursions abroad, there is an apparent increase of political control of US citizens:

The exposure of Operation Mockingbird showed that the CIA had been operating WITHIN THE US to influence media and control free thought for decades.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mockingbird

But, despite the old adage that if "it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck"  that it might be a duck, the CIA  has been omitted from the Wikipedia list of secret police agencies.

It makes one wonder just how much effort the CIA public relations department has made in order to keep the CIA and Mossad off the Wikipedia list which has Bahrain and China on the list; that is, it actually seems more damning that the CIA is not on the list.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_secret_police_organizations

With Operation Mockingbird in mind, can we CONNECT THESE DOTS:

.  On March 12, 2013 James Clapper, as head of all 17 secretive policing agencies, testified under oath before Congress that the CIA handmaiden, the NSA, did not collect information on “a single US citizen.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Clapper

.  Two months later Edward Snowden released Top Secret documents detailing that the NSA spied on over 120 million US citizens.

.  US Senator Lindsey Graham expressed shock that the secret police collected information on him and that he could not obtain the information they had gathered.
http://thehill.com/policy/national-security/339670-graham-gets-emotional-in-publ...

.  A federal court ordered that the remaining undisclosed Kennedy murder documents be released on Oct. 26, 2017, 54 years after the event, with only the US President allowed to block the release of any documents.  Trump said that he wanted to release the remaining thousands of pages of documents, but that the CIA refused and that he “had no choice” in the matter.

If Snowden hadn’t released the top secret NSA documents would we be aware of NSA spying on US citizens today?  

Would we know after 54 years?

Do we really know whether the secret police spy on US citizens now?

Maybe it doesn't really matter, but does the US have the kind of government that Washington, Jefferson, and Madison had in mind?
  
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Jeff
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Re: The "Deep State" "Mid-Level Government" "The Swamp"
Reply #4 - Dec 7th, 2017 at 8:21am
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burnsred wrote on Dec 6th, 2017 at 1:47pm:
Call it what you want.  They are determined to thwart the process of democracy.  If democracy is an important part of libertarianism...
It looks to me as if too much democracy ruined the republican forms of government that our Constitution is supposed to guarantee, and that those republican forms of government were what preserved and protected individual liberty from falling prey to big government.
  
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ahhell
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Re: The "Deep State" "Mid-Level Government" "The Swamp"
Reply #5 - Dec 7th, 2017 at 9:11am
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Jeff wrote on Dec 7th, 2017 at 8:21am:
It looks to me as if too much democracy ruined the republican forms of government that our Constitution is supposed to guarantee, and that those republican forms of government were what preserved and protected individual liberty from falling prey to big government.

I agree with this. 

Democracy is not an important part of libertarian principles though democratic institutions are.
  
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Don_G
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Re: The "Deep State" "Mid-Level Government" "The Swamp"
Reply #6 - Dec 7th, 2017 at 12:56pm
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Tom Palven wrote on Dec 7th, 2017 at 7:50am:
Steven Pinker made a great case that there is more peace and freedom in the world today than ever before as evidenced by a myriad of such things as fact that we no longer applaud the drawing and quartering of heretics or burning witches at the stake.

However, the US government doesn't seem to have gotten the memo, continuing to drone emerging politically incorrect  leaders in the Mideast and Pakistan, with recent expansion into sub--Saharan Africa.

And along with increased US incursions abroad, there is an apparent increase of political control of US citizens:

The exposure of Operation Mockingbird showed that the CIA had been operating WITHIN THE US to influence media and control free thought for decades.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mockingbird

But, despite the old adage that if "it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck"  that it might be a duck, the CIA  has been omitted from the Wikipedia list of secret police agencies.

It makes one wonder just how much effort the CIA public relations department has made in order to keep the CIA and Mossad off the Wikipedia list which has Bahrain and China on the list; that is, it actually seems more damning that the CIA is not on the list.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_secret_police_organizations

With Operation Mockingbird in mind, can we CONNECT THESE DOTS:

.  On March 12, 2013 James Clapper, as head of all 17 secretive policing agencies, testified under oath before Congress that the CIA handmaiden, the NSA, did not collect information on “a single US citizen.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Clapper

.  Two months later Edward Snowden released Top Secret documents detailing that the NSA spied on over 120 million US citizens.

.  US Senator Lindsey Graham expressed shock that the secret police collected information on him and that he could not obtain the information they had gathered.
http://thehill.com/policy/national-security/339670-graham-gets-emotional-in-publ...

.  A federal court ordered that the remaining undisclosed Kennedy murder documents be released on Oct. 26, 2017, 54 years after the event, with only the US President allowed to block the release of any documents.  Trump said that he wanted to release the remaining thousands of pages of documents, but that the CIA refused and that he “had no choice” in the matter.

If Snowden hadn’t released the top secret NSA documents would we be aware of NSA spying on US citizens today?  

Would we know after 54 years?

Do we really know whether the secret police spy on US citizens now?

Maybe it doesn't really matter, but does the US have the kind of government that Washington, Jefferson, and Madison had in mind?


Your posts are always well thought out Tom but in this case I think you've talked around the issue. And you've failed to acknowledge that any of my post was a correct analysis of Trump's very wrong move in firing Comey. Fwiw, I think there's little doubt that Comey testified truthfully on how Trump attempted to circumvent justice, regardless of any dislike for the FBI.

Also, I don't think I can agree with Trump not being onside with withholding the Kennedy story. Disappointing as it is to Americans, it's likely that the CIA and Trump are completely in agreement.

Trump simply needed to have a father and son talk with the CIA on the implications. The CIA being the father of course.

As an aside, and to go to what I consider off topic, the CIA's interests are almost definitely the state's best interests. Americans aren't understanding the state's best interests because they aren't understanding and accepting the state's full foreign policy agenda. The facts are unspeakable.

Another example to bring it all home is the heightened security on air travel. Libertarians complain loudly about it and how it infringes on their rights and freedoms. They can't accept that the cost of relaxing it is too dear.

The blame for needing this liberty robbing security needs to be shouldered by Americans. Bin Laden and Ron Paul made it crystal clear why!
  
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Tom Palven
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Re: The "Deep State" "Mid-Level Government" "The Swamp"
Reply #7 - Dec 8th, 2017 at 5:07am
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Don_G wrote on Dec 7th, 2017 at 12:56pm:
Your posts are always well thought out Tom but in this case I think you've talked around the issue. And you've failed to acknowledge that any of my post was a correct analysis of Trump's very wrong move in firing Comey. Fwiw, I think there's little doubt that Comey testified truthfully on how Trump attempted to circumvent justice, regardless of any dislike for the FBI.


I'm not ignoring your posts or disagreeing with them

It's just that I think that Donald Trump is pretty much irrelevant.

He doesn't control the CIA any more than Obama controlled CENTCOM. 

If any particular group is in control it's probably PNAC/Foreign Policy initiative, as you mentioned before.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_for_the_New_American_Century
  
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Re: The "Deep State" "Mid-Level Government" "The Swamp"
Reply #8 - Dec 9th, 2017 at 12:45pm
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burnsred wrote on Dec 6th, 2017 at 1:47pm:
Call it what you want.  They are determined to thwart the process of democracy.  If democracy is an important part of libertarianism, then we should be concerned that the entrenched bureaucracy is so openly and firmly partisan that electing a member of different party to head the executive branch automatically makes that president the enemy of the government


Tyranny of the majority is clearly NOT libertarian
  

Greg Gutfeld - I became a conservative by being around liberals and I became a libertarian by being around conservatives

Matt Stone - I hate conservatives, but I really f'ing hate liberals
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kaz
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Re: The "Deep State" "Mid-Level Government" "The Swamp"
Reply #9 - Dec 9th, 2017 at 12:46pm
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Don_G wrote on Dec 7th, 2017 at 12:56pm:
Your posts are always well thought out Tom but in this case I think you've talked around the issue. And you've failed to acknowledge that any of my post was a correct analysis of Trump's very wrong move in firing Comey. Fwiw, I think there's little doubt that Comey testified truthfully on how Trump attempted to circumvent justice, regardless of any dislike for the FBI.

Also, I don't think I can agree with Trump not being onside with withholding the Kennedy story. Disappointing as it is to Americans, it's likely that the CIA and Trump are completely in agreement.

Trump simply needed to have a father and son talk with the CIA on the implications. The CIA being the father of course.

As an aside, and to go to what I consider off topic, the CIA's interests are almost definitely the state's best interests. Americans aren't understanding the state's best interests because they aren't understanding and accepting the state's full foreign policy agenda. The facts are unspeakable.

Another example to bring it all home is the heightened security on air travel. Libertarians complain loudly about it and how it infringes on their rights and freedoms. They can't accept that the cost of relaxing it is too dear.

The blame for needing this liberty robbing security needs to be shouldered by Americans. Bin Laden and Ron Paul made it crystal clear why!


It's funny how the totalitarian loves the anarchist.  The enemy of your enemy is your friend, eh?
  

Greg Gutfeld - I became a conservative by being around liberals and I became a libertarian by being around conservatives

Matt Stone - I hate conservatives, but I really f'ing hate liberals
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