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MMMark
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Re: Nobody Is 100% Libertarian
Reply #290 - Mar 12th, 2018 at 4:56pm
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Mon. 18/03/12 16:55 EDT
.post #10

Jeff wrote on Mar 12th, 2018 at 6:46am:
"Envision a future in which the libertarian idea has become so widespread that legal aggression (i.e. government as we know it) is no longer permitted."

You start with the premise that government "won't be permitted" to exist, that everyone on earth will control themselves and follow the NAP.

In a world of perfect people, no government will be needed so people won't create or sustain governments.

Fantasies are fun, but why expect anything that you theorize/fantasize about a world full of libertarians will apply to the real world? On small scales, groups of people often get along fine without government, but they also often rob and beat and kill each other. How does it help to imagine the thieves and murderers have disappeared?

I think what has happened is (something like) this:
You've changed the wording of what I actually wrote, and you've changed it so much that the meaning of what I wrote is significantly different than the meaning of what you've written.  Then, you've attributed the meaning of what you wrote to me, and are now disagreeing with what you think my meaning was by asking rhetorical questions.

What I wrote:
"Envision a future in which the libertarian idea has become so widespread ..."

Your paraphrasing of what I wrote:
- everyone on earth will control themselves and follow the NAP.
- thieves and murderers have disappeared
- a world of perfect people
- a world full of libertarians
- no government will be needed

The above five statements (your wording) are different prima facie than my wording.  Further (I contend) none of the above five statements are even similar in meaning to the meaning of what I wrote.


What I wrote:
"legal aggression (i.e. government as we know it) is no longer permitted."

What you wrote:
"government won't be permitted"

- "government won't be permitted"  <--different--> "legal aggression (i.e. government as we know it) is no longer permitted."

Again, different statements prima facie and also different in meaning.



Jeff wrote on Mar 12th, 2018 at 6:46am:
Fantasies are fun, but why expect anything that you theorize/fantasize about a world full of libertarians will apply to the real world?

The premise of this rhetorical question is incorrect.
  
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Sicklers Dink
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Re: Nobody Is 100% Libertarian
Reply #291 - Mar 12th, 2018 at 5:18pm
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MMMark wrote on Mar 12th, 2018 at 4:38pm:
Mon.



You've not only understated the situation but, in my opinion, you've incorrectly stated it.  Let me reword what you wrote, as follows:

"The fact is, any job being done by government now, can't be done at all by private."

Now the statement acknowledges the plain truth, which is:

The only thing government can do, and the one thing the private sector cannot do, is commit legal aggression.
[/quote]

Alright MMM, I'll put you to the test. You don't state the aggression that you attribute to government. That could be because anything the government is authorized to do can't be considered aggression.

I'll use an example you can relate to"

When government destroyed the branch Davidians holeup, government was fully authorized. We can argue that or you can choose another example. You erred in thinking that the government commits aggression legally. If the government does commit aggression then it will be determined to be or not to be, the same as it would be for large corporations that commit aggression against the people and aren't required to pay for their crimes.

The part that you're missing, and nearly all libertarians are missing, is that the US government is corrupt. Other good governments can be trusted to manage 'social' programs for the people because they are 'socially responsible'.

You're all barking up the wrong tree. Asking that your government become even more conservative is the opposite approach to social responsibility.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Nobody Is 100% Libertarian
Reply #292 - Mar 12th, 2018 at 5:34pm
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MMMark wrote on Mar 12th, 2018 at 4:56pm:
"Envision a future in which the libertarian idea has become so widespread ..."

... that no government will be allowed to levy taxes.

Let's proceed from there in baby steps.

If you think government services like police and courts and prisons and national defense will exist without government and without taxation, you can run back through that argument, but I will start by saying it has never happened anywhere ever.

If you are imagining that "the libertarian idea" will become so "widespread" that there will no longer be thieves or murderers or aggressive nation states bent on creating empires, I will reply like this. Cheesy


  
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MMMark
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Re: Nobody Is 100% Libertarian
Reply #293 - Mar 12th, 2018 at 6:48pm
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Mon. 18/03/12 18:47 EDT
.post #11

SkyChief wrote on Mar 12th, 2018 at 11:56am:
Let's admit it - there are some gov't ABCs that cannot be handled by the private sector.  The FCC, the FAA come to mind.

I think what is important here is not whether the FCC and the FAA can "be handled by the private sector."  After all, it's not the ABCs we care about but rather the services they render.  The germane question then becomes "Which of the services, if any, do these ABCs render that producers value and hence will pay for?"  But the answer to this question need not, can not, and will not be provided by me, or you, or "voters".  Rather, that answer, and a method of providing the valued services, will be discovered via the market process by those economic actors who stand to profit by such a discovery.



SkyChief wrote on Mar 12th, 2018 at 11:56am:
These agencies are vital to the day-to-day operation of our country.  Imagine if these were to shut down for a day....    just. for. ONE. day.  Shocked

There would be mayhem.

This is an altogether separate issue.  How do we move from a government-monopoly, taxpayer subsidized service to a competitive and profit-driven provision of the service, and do so with as little "mayhem" as possible?

In my opinion, the first step must be to eliminate any and all legislative barriers to entry into the industry.  It could turn out (for example) that airline companies (or any other company, for that matter) don't build and run their own airports, not because it's unprofitable, but because it's prohibited.  Eliminating all such legislative barriers to entry would not disrupt the status quo, but it would make available the possibility of exploring private sector alternatives.

Having eliminated these legislative barriers, it might turn out that privately-run airports are not only profitable, but are actually more profitable than having to deal with all the inefficiency of government-run, taxpayer-subsidized airports.  In that case, transition from the latter to the former would naturally proceed.

If it turns out that government-run airports are more profitable, subsidies could be incrementally reduced, which would result in corresponding incremental increases in the price of a flight ticket, until such time that the price reached or exceeded the true market price.  At this point transition from government-run to privately-run airports would (once again) naturally proceed.



SkyChief wrote on Mar 12th, 2018 at 11:56am:
Private sector won't want to compete in these functions because there's simply no profit in it.

Of course the private sector, given the choice of either having an essential service subsidized by the taxpayer, or having to include the cost of the service in its balance sheet, will choose the former.  But what the private sector wants or doesn't want to do, or which companies will succeed and which will fail, is not the consumer's concern, nor should it be.  Deprived of the ability to socialize their costs, companies will devise non-subsidized solutions and the costs of doing so will be borne (as always) by the consumers of the product or service.

If necessity is the mother of invention, necessity+greed is that same mother on fertility drugs.
  
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MMMark
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Re: Nobody Is 100% Libertarian
Reply #294 - Mar 12th, 2018 at 6:59pm
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Mon. 18/03/12 18:59 EDT
.post #12

Jeff wrote on Mar 12th, 2018 at 5:34pm:
... that no government will be allowed to levy taxes.

Let's proceed from there in baby steps.

If you think government services like police and courts and prisons and national defense will exist without government and without taxation, you can run back through that argument, but I will start by saying it has never happened anywhere ever.

If you are imagining that "the libertarian idea" will become so "widespread" that there will no longer be thieves or murderers or aggressive nation states bent on creating empires, I will reply like this. Cheesy


I don't mind proceeding in baby steps, but the above steps are taking us further and further away both from what I originally wrote and from my original meaning.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Nobody Is 100% Libertarian
Reply #295 - Mar 12th, 2018 at 7:05pm
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MMMark wrote on Mar 12th, 2018 at 6:59pm:
Mon. 18/03/12 18:59 EDT
.post #12


I don't mind proceeding in baby steps, but the above steps are taking us further and further away both from what I originally wrote and from my original meaning.
What did you mean when you said this-

"Envision a future in which the libertarian idea has become so widespread that legal aggression (i.e. government as we know it) is no longer permitted."

Edit: In the context of "vetting" people who might want to come and live among us, you want the government completely uninvolved, but it seems you also want to end social "welfare" transfer payments, so the people who wander into my town will either have to work or beg or steal to survive? I'm fine with that, as long as they come here to work.

But what about anarcho-communists and radical Islamist terrorists who come here to bomb and kill?


  
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Re: Nobody Is 100% Libertarian
Reply #296 - Mar 12th, 2018 at 7:06pm
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MMMark wrote on Mar 12th, 2018 at 6:59pm:
Mon. 18/03/12 18:59 EDT
.post #12


I don't mind proceeding in baby steps, but the above steps are taking us further and further away both from what I originally wrote and from my original meaning.


You've written bullshit and now you're trying to run from facing up to it. Government action against criminals or suspected criminals isn't aggression. The Branch Davidians case is the perfect example of the government having to take action against criminals.

And fwiw, neither is the ridiculous argument that government steals your money at the point of a gun.

Ridiculous!
  
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Jeff
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Re: Nobody Is 100% Libertarian
Reply #297 - Mar 12th, 2018 at 7:16pm
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Sicklers Dink wrote on Mar 12th, 2018 at 7:06pm:
The Branch Davidians case is the perfect example of the government having to take action against criminals.
The Branch Davidians' crime was what? Following social mores from another time and place? That was the Mormons crime too wasn't it? Lots of Mormons got murdered in cold blood too.
  
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Re: Nobody Is 100% Libertarian
Reply #298 - Mar 12th, 2018 at 7:37pm
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Mon. 18/03/12 19:35 EDT
.post #13

Jeff wrote on Mar 12th, 2018 at 7:05pm:
What did you mean when you said this-

"Envision a future in which the libertarian idea has become so widespread that legal aggression (i.e. government as we know it) is no longer permitted."


Two issues here.
1. The meaning of what I wrote.
2. The context in which I wrote it.

It's possible that my use of the term "legal aggression" is causing some problems with #1, so let me explain what I mean by that term.

Aggression comprises the following:
a. That which is legally proscribed - for example, private robbery, i.e. "robbery."
b. That which is legally permitted - for example, government robbery, i.e. "taxation."
  
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Re: Nobody Is 100% Libertarian
Reply #299 - Mar 12th, 2018 at 7:42pm
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MMMark wrote on Mar 12th, 2018 at 7:37pm:
Mon. 18/03/12 19:35 EDT
.post #13


Two issues here.
1. The meaning of what I wrote.
2. The context in which I wrote it.

It's possible that my use of the term "legal aggression" is causing some problems with #1, so let me explain what I mean by that term.

Aggression comprises the following:
a. That which is legally proscribed - for example, private robbery, i.e. "robbery."
b. That which is legally permitted - for example, government robbery, i.e. "taxation."
When you say- ..."legal aggression (i.e. government as we know it)"...

you are obviously talking about government no longer existing.

That means you are engaging in anarchist fantasies.

  
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