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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Nobody Is 100% Libertarian (Read 11533 times)
Don_G
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Re: Nobody Is 100% Libertarian
Reply #30 - Dec 11th, 2017 at 2:58pm
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kaz wrote on Dec 11th, 2017 at 2:44pm:
Spamming is when you post the same content over and over.  I'm not repeatedly just calling you a troll.  I'm pointing to the actual troll posts whenever I see you do it.

It is interesting that you are at least recognizing the amazing frequency of which you troll.  Obviously you are doing it intentionally since your troll posts are repeatedly shown to you and you don't care.

What's particularly upsetting to you is that by calling out your troll posts, I'm killing the effectiveness of your trolling.  You don't get many responses to the posts I point to.  Here's a hanky


You're completely right! For the final time for christ sake. And that includes noticing that you find me upsetting. Now get on that grain and corn and mix it all up with your pigshit and mude and then roll in it and be happy. You've outed me compeltely and thoroughly piglet!
  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: Nobody Is 100% Libertarian
Reply #31 - Dec 11th, 2017 at 3:00pm
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SkyChief wrote on Dec 10th, 2017 at 1:05pm:
Even the most hard-core libertarians will not be in full agreement with LP issues. There will always be some issues where a libertarian's view(s) will deviate from standard LP tenets.

So be honest and tell us how your personal view(s) might go against the collective libertarian mind-set.

I have two:

Open Borders.   

I admit the current immigration policy is a mess and in dire need of comprehensive reform. But open borders?  Nah.  There are too many people who want to come to the US with the sole ambition of causing harm and mayhem.  Immigrants entering the US need to be properly vetted, imo.

OSHA/ Safety in the Workplace

This is one government agency I believe is necessary.  They saved my life.  During my field work in communications, I was often working around extremely high voltages [200 kVA].  OSHA mandated that each tech be provided a Hi-Voltage inductive tester - simple trigger-operated proximity device that tells when a voltage over 120v is detected.

It's a long story - suffice it to say that this thing saved my life. On two seperate occasions!
I like the Texas Libertarian Party's way of putting it:  "We support ________, with the eventual goal of ______________."  The eventual goal would be open borders but that will have to wait until we have a libertarian system in place.  With no welfare to attract layabouts, no drug laws to attract smugglers and no prostitution laws making human traffic profitable, many of the worst social problems caused by open borders will be non-existent.

As to OSHA, your support of it IMHO is typical of many people who lean libertarian but like one particular aspect of intrusive government so they make an exception for it.  I'm sure that Hi-Voltage inductive testers have saved several lives since the government mandated them.  No doubt seat belts have saved many lives since they were mandated, first as equipment then as mandatory devices to wear.  More lives could be saved if people were required to wear helmets in cars as they are on motorcycles.  Or if we banned private transportation altogether. 

Those are still unacceptable (to a libertarian) intrusions into decisions best left to adults. 

My honest confession is not about a particular program that I support in spite of being a libertarian.  My honest confession is that if government programs worked well, I would probably not be complaining about taxes taken at gunpoint, etc.  When people said that, I would probably respond, "well, yeah, technically I guess" as do many on here, "But look at how well our schools teach and how efficient the post office is!

If the GOP were really fighting for smaller government, I might not have read up on libertarianism.  But they cave in so consistently as soon as the media gets on them that we really have only one party.  Even "outsiders" have to run in the major parties' primaries to get any traction at all. 

So while many on here have accused me of being too ideologically pure, I came to libertarianism in the first place out of pragmatism more than idealism.
  

"I think I'll backtrack." - Jeff
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kaz
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Re: Nobody Is 100% Libertarian
Reply #32 - Dec 11th, 2017 at 3:04pm
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Quote:
You're completely right! For the final time for christ sake. And that includes noticing that you find me upsetting. Now get on that grain and corn and mix it all up with your pigshit and mude and then roll in it and be happy. You've outed me compeltely and thoroughly piglet!


The trolling is strong in this one ...

I like the Fishburne quote where he points out that if you troll and act like an asshole, you are an asshole ...
  

Greg Gutfeld - I became a conservative by being around liberals and I became a libertarian by being around conservatives

Matt Stone - I hate conservatives, but I really f'ing hate liberals
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Jeff
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Re: Nobody Is 100% Libertarian
Reply #33 - Dec 11th, 2017 at 3:13pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Dec 11th, 2017 at 3:00pm:
I like the Texas Libertarian Party's way of putting it:  "We support ________, with the eventual goal of ______________."  The eventual goal would be open borders but that will have to wait until we have a libertarian system in place.  With no welfare to attract layabouts, no drug laws to attract smugglers and no prostitution laws making human traffic profitable, many of the worst social problems caused by open borders will be non-existent.

As to OSHA, your support of it IMHO is typical of many people who lean libertarian but like one particular aspect of intrusive government so they make an exception for it.  I'm sure that Hi-Voltage inductive testers have saved several lives since the government mandated them.  No doubt seat belts have saved many lives since they were mandated, first as equipment then as mandatory devices to wear.  More lives could be saved if people were required to wear helmets in cars as they are on motorcycles.  Or if we banned private transportation altogether. 

Those are still unacceptable (to a libertarian) intrusions into decisions best left to adults. 

My honest confession is not about a particular program that I support in spite of being a libertarian.  My honest confession is that if government programs worked well, I would probably not be complaining about taxes taken at gunpoint, etc.  When people said that, I would probably respond, "well, yeah, technically I guess" as do many on here, "But look at how well our schools teach and how efficient the post office is!

If the GOP were really fighting for smaller government, I might not have read up on libertarianism.  But they cave in so consistently as soon as the media gets on them that we really have only one party.  Even "outsiders" have to run in the major parties' primaries to get any traction at all. 

So while many on here have accused me of being too ideologically pure, I came to libertarianism in the first place out of pragmatism more than idealism.
And you should stick with it. Ideological purity doesn't produce good concrete results. The policies that libertarians should support are ones that best maximize liberty, that is, strictly limited government designed to protect rights.

Ideologically pure liberty is anarchy, which would be fine if everybody believed in and followed the NAP... But not everybody does.
  
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SkyChief
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Re: Nobody Is 100% Libertarian
Reply #34 - Dec 11th, 2017 at 4:19pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Dec 11th, 2017 at 3:00pm:
 My honest confession is that if government programs worked well, I would probably not be complaining about taxes taken at gunpoint, etc.  When people said that, I would probably respond, "well, yeah, technically I guess" as do many on here, "But look at how well our schools teach and how efficient the post office is!

Allow me to translate.

Income and Property taxes are ok as long as government does a better job at providing things that they shouldn't be providing in the first place.

(just kidding  Wink)  Thanks for being honest, burns,  this is what I looking for.   Smiley
  
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Jeff
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Re: Nobody Is 100% Libertarian
Reply #35 - Dec 11th, 2017 at 5:39pm
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SkyChief wrote on Dec 11th, 2017 at 4:19pm:
Allow me to translate.

Income and Property taxes are ok as long as government does a better job at providing things that they shouldn't be providing in the first place.

That's a good translation Chief, thanks.
  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: Nobody Is 100% Libertarian
Reply #36 - Dec 11th, 2017 at 6:36pm
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Quote:
Allow me to translate.

Income and Property taxes are ok as long as government does a better job at providing things that they shouldn't be providing in the first place.


Jeff wrote on Dec 11th, 2017 at 5:39pm:
That's a good translation Chief, thanks.
Not exactly.

Better translation:  If the government had done a better job providing all the services it provides, I probably would never have thought to question whether it should be providing them at all or the morality of how it raises the funds to provide them.


  

"I think I'll backtrack." - Jeff
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Snarky Sack
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Re: Nobody Is 100% Libertarian
Reply #37 - Dec 11th, 2017 at 6:43pm
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Jeff wrote on Dec 11th, 2017 at 3:13pm:
And you should stick with it. Ideological purity doesn't produce good concrete results. The policies that libertarians should support are ones that best maximize liberty, that is, strictly limited government designed to protect rights.

Ideologically pure liberty is anarchy, which would be fine if everybody believed in and followed the NAP... But not everybody does.
Which is why ideological anarchy is not a pure form of libertarianism.  Under anarchy, liberty would be limited by a person's physical ability to fight for it relative to those who seek to take it away.  Under libertarianism, government is granted the legitimate use of force and instructed to only use that force to prevent initiation of force against non-initiators. 

Which is why, theoretically, democracy is not essential to libertarianism.  Under a true libertarian system, government officials are little more than figureheads and so it would be fine to select them on the basis of whether the fit the uniform that last one wore so it would save on alterations.

Practically speaking, a libertarian society requires a libertarian electorate who will vote out a government official at the first sign of statism.


  

"I think I'll backtrack." - Jeff
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kaz
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Re: Nobody Is 100% Libertarian
Reply #38 - Dec 11th, 2017 at 6:50pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Dec 11th, 2017 at 6:43pm:
Which is why ideological anarchy is not a pure form of libertarianism.  Under anarchy, liberty would be limited by a person's physical ability to fight for it relative to those who seek to take it away.  Under libertarianism, government is granted the legitimate use of force and instructed to only use that force to prevent initiation of force against non-initiators. 

Which is why, theoretically, democracy is not essential to libertarianism.  Under a true libertarian system, government officials are little more than figureheads and so it would be fine to select them on the basis of whether the fit the uniform that last one wore so it would save on alterations.

Practically speaking, a libertarian society requires a libertarian electorate who will vote out a government official at the first sign of statism.




Anarchy is like the big bang, it can only happen for an instant.  Bad people would immediately band together to rob good people.  Good people would band together to fight off the bad people.  And then you have government again
  

Greg Gutfeld - I became a conservative by being around liberals and I became a libertarian by being around conservatives

Matt Stone - I hate conservatives, but I really f'ing hate liberals
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Jeff
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Re: Nobody Is 100% Libertarian
Reply #39 - Dec 11th, 2017 at 7:58pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Dec 11th, 2017 at 6:36pm:
Not exactly.

Better translation:  If the government had done a better job providing all the services it provides, I probably would never have thought to question whether it should be providing them at all or the morality of how it raises the funds to provide them.


As long as things seem easy and are working well, you won't ever question who might be caused harm to make things easy for you?
  
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