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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Nobody Is 100% Libertarian (Read 9364 times)
MMMark
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Re: Nobody Is 100% Libertarian
Reply #300 - Mar 12th, 2018 at 7:51pm
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Mon. 18/03/12 18:51 EDT
.post #14

Quote:
You've written bullshit ...

You reject as illegitimate what I've written, which is your statement about you.

Quote:
... and now you're trying to run from facing up to it.

This is your statement about me; it's incorrect.



Quote:
And fwiw, neither is the ridiculous argument that government steals your money at the point of a gun.

But why call it a "ridiculous argument" when you could condemn it much more forcefully and convincingly?  I'd call it an impossible argument.  It's literally and obviously an oxymoron, a contradiction in terms.
« Last Edit: Mar 12th, 2018 at 9:19pm by MMMark »  
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MMMark
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Re: Nobody Is 100% Libertarian
Reply #301 - Mar 12th, 2018 at 8:00pm
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Mon. 18/03/12 20:17 EDT
.post #15

Jeff wrote on Mar 12th, 2018 at 7:05pm:
In the context of "vetting" people who might want to come and live among us, you want the government completely uninvolved, ...

I don't believe I've said this.



Jeff wrote on Mar 12th, 2018 at 7:05pm:
... but it seems you also want to end social "welfare" transfer payments, ...

Nor do I believe I've said this.


Jeff wrote on Mar 12th, 2018 at 7:05pm:
... so the people who wander into my town will either have to work or beg or steal to survive?

The answer to this question depends on your town's constitution.




Jeff wrote on Mar 12th, 2018 at 7:05pm:
But what about anarcho-communists and radical Islamist terrorists who come here to bomb and kill?

Then I think there will be trouble...but this is not strictly an objection to libertarianism because, as we already know, terrorists can and do wreak havoc in the US, the mightiest wealthiest state that has ever existed in human history.



Jeff wrote on Mar 12th, 2018 at 7:42pm:
When you say- ..."legal aggression (i.e. government as we know it)"...

you are obviously talking about government no longer existing.

"government as we know it" <-- different --> "government"
« Last Edit: Mar 12th, 2018 at 9:18pm by MMMark »  
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MMMark
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Re: Nobody Is 100% Libertarian
Reply #302 - Mar 12th, 2018 at 9:04pm
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Mon. 18/03/12 21:02 EDT
.post #16

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You don't state the aggression that you attribute to government.

This sentence is so poorly constructed that it's almost meaningless.  I don't know what you're trying to say here.

Quote:
That could be because anything the government is authorized to do can't be considered aggression.

Many things, including "anything the government is authorized to do," can be considered "aggression."  My preference, however, is to call things by their proper names and that definitions be restrictive and not expansive.



Quote:
If the government does commit aggression then it will be determined to be or not to be, the same as it would be for large corporations that commit aggression against the people and aren't required to pay for their crimes.

Corporate aggression is illegal aggression by definition, irrespective of whether it's prosecuted.
Taxation is widely considered a legitimate government activity and hence is legal.  Wide public acceptance does not alter the fact that taxation is, nevertheless, aggression.

Quote:
When government destroyed the branch Davidians holeup, government was fully authorized.

You erred in thinking that the government commits aggression legally.

Your first sentence seems to contradict your second sentence.

The government's murder of the Branch Davidians was also aggression.


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... the US government is corrupt.

The US government does what a minority of voters elect it to do: Legally commit aggression, in many different ways, all funded by taxation and inflation, which is also legal aggression.


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You're all barking up the wrong tree. Asking that your government become even more conservative is the opposite approach to social responsibility.

While this might be true, I'm (fortunately) not barking up this particular tree.


What is interesting is that you (seem to) equate the promotion of libertarianism with "Asking that your government become even more conservative."

Wow!  I definitely don't see it that way, at all.  To me, "more conservative" means "more legal aggression of the conservative variety," and I sure don't want that.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Nobody Is 100% Libertarian
Reply #303 - Mar 13th, 2018 at 1:47am
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Jeff wrote on Mar 12th, 2018 at 7:42pm:
When you say- ..."legal aggression (i.e. government as we know it)"...

you are obviously talking about government no longer existing.

That means you are engaging in anarchist fantasies.


Jeff wrote on Jan 8th, 2018 at 8:21am:
It is nonsense to talk of a "libertarian government".


  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Re: Nobody Is 100% Libertarian
Reply #304 - Mar 13th, 2018 at 7:17am
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Tues. 18/03/13 07:17 EDT
.post #17

Quote:
Asking that your government become even more conservative is the opposite approach to social responsibility.

I find this statement interesting enough to comment again; it's an excellent example of what libertarians are up against as they try to explain libertarianism.


It's as if I go to a coffee shop and order my favorite delicious drink called Freedom.
  "I'll take a large, please," I say.  Unfortunately, the shop is under new management and the new policy is that every cup of Freedom is now adulterated with two stale old ingredients, one called Liberalism and one called Conservatism.
  "Yechhh!" I say when I taste it; "you've ruined it!  Listen, please make me another cup and increase the ratio of Freedom."
  "Okay," says the girl behind the counter.  "You want me to add more Conservatism and less Liberalism, is that it?"
  
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Jeff
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Re: Nobody Is 100% Libertarian
Reply #305 - Mar 13th, 2018 at 9:13am
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The Opposition wrote on Mar 13th, 2018 at 1:47am:
I don't get your point if there is one.

Eliminating the legal power of government to tax will eliminate government. The result is anarchy, which has never resulted in individual liberty and the protection of individual rights.

Governments are not "libertarian" and can't be if they are to exist and protect individual rights and liberty, but a properly designed and limited government will allow individuals to be free so that they can create libertarian societies, or not, as they choose, as long as they respect the rights of others.

Our Constitution designs a system of government that prevents government tyranny (if we hold the government to the law) while protecting individual lives, liberty and property.

It allows free civilized people to order their own lives. To do so, it necessarily engages in aggression against people who violate the rights of others by force or fraud. It also necessarily taxes people in order to create and sustain the means to protect their lives, liberty and property. Our government is not "libertarian" in it's actions to protect our liberty, and because we are free, we are free to voluntarily join communal organizations and submit to their rules. Your protected liberty allows you to become a Monk and submit to the rules of the Monastic order you choose, or be Hobo if you prefer that sort of life.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Nobody Is 100% Libertarian
Reply #306 - Mar 13th, 2018 at 9:24am
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MMMark wrote on Mar 13th, 2018 at 7:17am:
Tues. 18/03/13 07:17 EDT
.post #17

I find this statement interesting enough to comment again; it's an excellent example of what libertarians are up against as they try to explain libertarianism.


It's as if I go to a coffee shop and order my favorite delicious drink called Freedom.
  "I'll take a large, please," I say.  Unfortunately, the shop is under new management and the new policy is that every cup of Freedom is now adulterated with two stale old ingredients, one called Liberalism and one called Conservatism.
  "Yechhh!" I say when I taste it; "you've ruined it!  Listen, please make me another cup and increase the ratio of Freedom."
  "Okay," says the girl behind the counter.  "You want me to add more Conservatism and less Liberalism, is that it?"
It works for me. Even though I think of myself as a classical liberal, I know exactly what you mean.

I blame "progressives" for repeatedly changing their label in order to try to leave behind the bad taste they always create... Are they trying to label themselves "liberal" again?

I see the essential conflict as being between (classical) liberals who believe people can order their own lives and rule themselves and authoritarians of all sorts who believe people must be "regulated" and ruled.
  
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RubyHypatia
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Re: Nobody Is 100% Libertarian
Reply #307 - Mar 13th, 2018 at 9:27am
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Well, I'm against the Drug Enforcement Agency because I'm against the war on drugs.  It's a huge waste of money.  All drugs should be legal, with the exception of selling them to minors.  That can be handled by local police.
  
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Re: Nobody Is 100% Libertarian
Reply #308 - Mar 13th, 2018 at 11:53am
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RubyHypatia wrote on Mar 13th, 2018 at 9:27am:
  All drugs should be legal, with the exception of selling them to minors.  That can be handled by local police.

The local police should NOT be selling drugs to minors.  It sends a bad message, IMO.  Children should not be encouraged to do any (recreational) drugs - even drugs sold by cops.

(jk, Ruby)
  
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MMMark
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Re: Nobody Is 100% Libertarian
Reply #309 - Mar 13th, 2018 at 12:42pm
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Tues. 18/03/13 12:40 EDT
.post #18

SkyChief wrote on Mar 13th, 2018 at 11:53am:
The local police should NOT be selling drugs to minors.  It sends a bad message, IMO.  Children should not be encouraged to do any (recreational) drugs - even the drugs sold by cops.

haha!


The following article examines the idea of decentralized communities:

Why a Small State Is More "Voluntary" than a Big One
https://mises.org/wire/why-small-state-more-voluntary-big-one

and discusses "barriers to emigration":

|... once states can extend their monopolies over vast expanses of land, linguistic areas, and cultural areas, emigration becomes difficult, and states are more easily able to increase their taxation and regulatory power over a population without danger of losing their tax base due to migration.|


After discussing the private covenant community, this paragraph is reminiscent of your evaluation of HOAs:

|At this point, some may further object: "But all communities like this have rules I don't like! All the houses I like are in homeowners-association controlled communities, and it's not fair to make me live somewhere that is not to my liking in every conceivable way!"|
  
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