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SkyChief
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Re: Nobody Is 100% Libertarian
Reply #560 - Jul 6th, 2018 at 11:10am
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Jeff wrote on Jul 6th, 2018 at 7:13am:
Here's what the Chief said-

"Currently, 62% of all revenues derived from income taxes are spent on non-essential crony defense contractors, and entitlements.

These things can easily be eliminated with the stroke of a [President's] pen."

The President can't eliminate Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid or "welfare" (including corporate welfare) "with the stroke of a pen". Nor can he stop the funding of defense or do much if anything to eliminate defense spending he might think is "non-essential"... The President's own Dept of Defense can't even close military bases it doesn't need or want, Congress won't let them.

I should have added that Congress would need to approve also.  But in the end, its the President's signature that makes it official.

If Congress decides to eliminate funding to Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid or "welfare", and the President signs, the it it WILL happen.
  
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SicklersDink
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Re: Nobody Is 100% Libertarian
Reply #561 - Jul 6th, 2018 at 12:20pm
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The president of the US is all powerful and can do pretty much anything he pleases. The system doesn't have any real checks on his power.

At least no checks until great damage is done. Obama's damage he done to US hegemony by cooperating with Russia on Syria's chem/bio weapons is a good example.

In that case at least, it was great damage to the US for the good.

Obama saw what his country was attempting to do. It was another Iraq/WMD setup in the making.

Sadly, it will be a long time before the US has another president who will work for world peace.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Nobody Is 100% Libertarian
Reply #562 - Jul 6th, 2018 at 1:15pm
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SkyChief wrote on Jul 6th, 2018 at 11:10am:
I should have added that Congress would need to approve also.  But in the end, its the President's signature that makes it official.

If Congress decides to eliminate funding to Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid or "welfare", and the President signs, the it it WILL happen.
Yes. Congress seems to not even want to talk about any of that sort of thing, much less do it.

BTW, Congress can pass laws without the President's signature by overriding his veto.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Nobody Is 100% Libertarian
Reply #563 - Jul 7th, 2018 at 1:06am
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Jeff wrote on Jul 6th, 2018 at 7:13am:
Here's what the Chief said-

"Currently, 62% of all revenues derived from income taxes are spent on non-essential crony defense contractors, and entitlements.

These things can easily be eliminated with the stroke of a [President's] pen."

The President can't eliminate Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid or "welfare" (including corporate welfare) "with the stroke of a pen". Nor can he stop the funding of defense or do much if anything to eliminate defense spending he might think is "non-essential"... The President's own Dept of Defense can't even close military bases it doesn't need or want, Congress won't let them.


As I recall, Obama did quite a few things a president "can't" do. He just used executive order.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: Nobody Is 100% Libertarian
Reply #564 - Jul 7th, 2018 at 8:37am
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The Opposition wrote on Jul 7th, 2018 at 1:06am:
As I recall, Obama did quite a few things a president "can't" do. He just used executive order.
And Trump can undo all of them... although Congress and the Courts should have gotten involved in stopping at least some of them, and I think refusing to follow a duly enacted law is grounds for impeachment, and Obama should have been.

You think it would stand if a president stopped Social Security and Medicare/Medicaid payments by simply ordering them stopped?

I don't think the people in the bureaucracies that technically are the only proper subjects of executive orders would even stop sending out checks.

The actions of presidents, like the actions of all government employees, must be within the law, and it is simply far outside the law (the Constitution) to have a president changing laws or making new laws on his own.
  
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SicklersDink
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Re: Nobody Is 100% Libertarian
Reply #565 - Jul 7th, 2018 at 11:44am
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Jeff wrote on Jul 7th, 2018 at 8:37am:
And Trump can undo all of them... although Congress and the Courts should have gotten involved in stopping at least some of them, and I think refusing to follow a duly enacted law is grounds for impeachment, and Obama should have been.

You think it would stand if a president stopped Social Security and Medicare/Medicaid payments by simply ordering them stopped?

I don't think the people in the bureaucracies that technically are the only proper subjects of executive orders would even stop sending out checks.

The actions of presidents, like the actions of all government employees, must be within the law, and it is simply far outside the law (the Constitution) to have a president changing laws or making new laws on his own.

We can only dream of the day Trump stops social security and medicare payments!  Would that be the descent to true Nazism? Didn't the Nazis eliminate all the social programs that had been in place for nearly 100 years before they came to power?
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Nobody Is 100% Libertarian
Reply #566 - Jul 7th, 2018 at 2:36pm
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Jeff wrote on Jul 7th, 2018 at 8:37am:
And Trump can undo all of them... although Congress and the Courts should have gotten involved in stopping at least some of them, and I think refusing to follow a duly enacted law is grounds for impeachment, and Obama should have been.

You think it would stand if a president stopped Social Security and Medicare/Medicaid payments by simply ordering them stopped?

I don't think the people in the bureaucracies that technically are the only proper subjects of executive orders would even stop sending out checks.

The actions of presidents, like the actions of all government employees, must be within the law, and it is simply far outside the law (the Constitution) to have a president changing laws or making new laws on his own.


I'm not going to nitpick you and your individual words the way you do everyone else, but it's important to understand what we're talking about here.

Now, when you say Sky was wrong about what the president can do...

Do you mean can, or should?

I don't know if executing ordering Medicare away would stand or not. Before Obama I would have said no. Now I'm not sure.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: Nobody Is 100% Libertarian
Reply #567 - Jul 7th, 2018 at 2:53pm
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The Opposition wrote on Jul 7th, 2018 at 2:36pm:
I'm not going to nitpick you and your individual words the way you do everyone else, but it's important to understand what we're talking about here.

Now, when you say Sky was wrong about what the president can do...

Do you mean can, or should?

I don't know if executing ordering Medicare away would stand or not. Before Obama I would have said no. Now I'm not sure.

Can and should have different meanings, probably because they are different words. Wink

President's can't make laws or change laws. All legislative power is vested in Congress.

Medicare is law. Presidents can argue to have it altered or repealed, but they can't themselves alter or repeal any laws, and to do so is an unconstitutional usurpation of power not granted and cause for impeachment.

President's are required to swear an oath that they will faithfully execute the laws. That means they are bound to follow them. Ignoring laws is a violation of the oath and also grounds for impeachment, as is executing laws in a manner different from the way they are written.

Admittedly, Congress exacerbates the problem by writing and passing vague instructions rather than actual laws, which gives presidents and their bureaucrats lots of room to make their own interpretations of what the laws actually require them to do, and that often gets the courts involved in the process too.

Perhaps Congress is the root of the problem? I think so.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Nobody Is 100% Libertarian
Reply #568 - Jul 7th, 2018 at 5:55pm
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Jeff wrote on Jul 7th, 2018 at 2:53pm:
Can and should have different meanings, probably because they are different words. Wink

President's can't make laws or change laws. All legislative power is vested in Congress.

Medicare is law. Presidents can argue to have it altered or repealed, but they can't themselves alter or repeal any laws, and to do so is an unconstitutional usurpation of power not granted and cause for impeachment.

President's are required to swear an oath that they will faithfully execute the laws. That means they are bound to follow them. Ignoring laws is a violation of the oath and also grounds for impeachment, as is executing laws in a manner different from the way they are written.

Admittedly, Congress exacerbates the problem by writing and passing vague instructions rather than actual laws, which gives presidents and their bureaucrats lots of room to make their own interpretations of what the laws actually require them to do, and that often gets the courts involved in the process too.

Perhaps Congress is the root of the problem? I think so.


All this stuff about doing what you swear and only doing what the letter of the law permits makes it clear that you mean should, not can.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: Nobody Is 100% Libertarian
Reply #569 - Jul 8th, 2018 at 7:41am
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The Opposition wrote on Jul 7th, 2018 at 5:55pm:
All this stuff about doing what you swear and only doing what the letter of the law permits makes it clear that you mean should, not can.
Presidents in the U.S. have no power to make or alter laws. They are required to follow the laws and faithfully execute them.

Any president "can" issue orders that purportedly change the law, or issue orders to his employees the tell them to not follow the law, but such actions are outside the law and have no legal force.

There are laws against murder, but anyone "can" murder someone.
  
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