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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) healthcare rationing. (Read 488 times)
Thumper
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healthcare rationing.
Dec 12th, 2017 at 2:55am
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I know this is an older story. But I figured I'd link ya to a pretty epic fail with NHS.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/02/obese-patients-and-smokers-banned-fro...

So they are taxes at increased rates to pay for universal health care, but are not allowed to use it?
  
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SnarkySack
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Re: healthcare rationing.
Reply #1 - Dec 12th, 2017 at 7:57am
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Thumper wrote on Dec 12th, 2017 at 2:55am:
I know this is an older story. But I figured I'd link ya to a pretty epic fail with NHS.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/02/obese-patients-and-smokers-banned-fro...

So they are taxes at increased rates to pay for universal health care, but are not allowed to use it?


No doubt they'll be coming to the U.S. for care.  That is, if they can afford to and if the government doesn't forbid as it did for Charlie Gard.

When a socialist government takes over an industry that was built up by private enterprise in the free market, it kills that private enterprise.  They are like Hyenas going after an antelope.  It can only feed off the corpse for so long before it realizes it has to move on.   In the wild there is always another antelope but for medical care the only relatively free market left is the U.S.  The hyenas are in full cry after that one also.

Where do they think they will go once the U.S. health system has been brought down to the level of Europe?

« Last Edit: Dec 12th, 2017 at 12:28pm by SnarkySack »  

I used to be burnsred . . .
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Don_G
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Re: healthcare rationing.
Reply #2 - Dec 12th, 2017 at 1:01pm
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Thumper wrote on Dec 12th, 2017 at 2:55am:
I know this is an older story. But I figured I'd link ya to a pretty epic fail with NHS.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/02/obese-patients-and-smokers-banned-fro...

So they are taxes at increased rates to pay for universal health care, but are not allowed to use it?


Jump right in thumper. I'm not sure if I want to have to go over all the statistics again but I guess I will briefly revisit it.

Maybe you know already but in case you don't, your system is the worst of all modern countries, your medical outcome is the worst, your infant mortality rate is the highest, your system leaves out 30 or 40 million people, some Americans don't even go to see doctors because of the cost, and yours cost the most per capita by far. Did I miss anything burnsred.

So jump, thump right in!
  
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ahhell
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Re: healthcare rationing.
Reply #3 - Dec 12th, 2017 at 1:17pm
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You did get something wrong, infant mortality is a bad metric because countries don't report it consistently. 

In reality, we get roughly similar results to most industrialized nations at about twice the cost.   Increased mortality rates are mostly if not entirely due to lifestyle choices rather than bad medical care.  The bad rankings you tout so often are also largely related to the unequal distribution of medical not actual bad outcomes. 

Anyrate, our "system" does suck but its mostly because it costs so much.  We already pay for universal coverage but we only get partial coverage for the price. 

All systems ration care, we don't live in a post scarcity world, until we do, we will have to ration care in some way.
  
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Don_G
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Re: healthcare rationing.
Reply #4 - Dec 12th, 2017 at 1:34pm
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ahhell wrote on Dec 12th, 2017 at 1:17pm:
You did get something wrong, infant mortality is a bad metric because countries don't report it consistently.


I don't grant you that automatically but I won't reject it outright because you are demonstrating some sincerity to talk about the issues.

At this point I will just say that we should stop. But I won't back off and tolerate any of burnsred's comebacks on Canada's healthcare with the motive to protect his own. And remember, I didn't start all these threads. 

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In reality, we get roughly similar results to most industrialized nations at about twice the cost.   Increased mortality rates are mostly if not entirely due to lifestyle choices rather than bad medical care.  The bad rankings you tout so often are also largely related to the unequal distribution of medical not actual bad outcomes. 


I'm not in total agreement but I'm going to let sleeping dogs lie.

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Anyrate, our "system" does suck but its mostly because it costs so much.  We already pay for universal coverage but we only get partial coverage for the price.
 

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All systems ration care, we don't live in a post scarcity world, until we do, we will have to ration care in some way. 


This is true and I think we both know that some rationing is done with the intent of keeping costs down. An exaggeration would be to try to dissuade people from seeking medical care for a cut finger or a common cold.

Thank you for your common sense approach. Now I'll put the whole thing to bed until somebody wakes it up again.
  
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SnarkySack
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Re: healthcare rationing.
Reply #5 - Dec 12th, 2017 at 2:09pm
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Don_G wrote on Dec 12th, 2017 at 1:34pm:
I don't grant you that automatically but I won't reject it outright because you are demonstrating some sincerity to talk about the issues.

At this point I will just say that we should stop.
As you always do when you lose, yes.

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But I won't back off and tolerate any of burnsred's comebacks on Canada's healthcare with the motive to protect his own. And remember, I didn't start all these threads. 
How does a Canadian doctor look a patient in the eye and tell him that his prostate cancer surger will have to wait?  Do they typically commiserate with the poor bugger or do they defend the system by quoting the government-produced infant mortality stats?

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This is true and I think we both know that some rationing is done with the intent of keeping costs down. An exaggeration would be to try to dissuade people from seeking medical care for a cut finger or a common cold.
The more free the market, the more supply can rise to meet demand.  Therefore there is no rationing needed in a free market because innovation in delivering goods and services takes place.  For example in Texas, some of our grocery stores have clinics who treat cuts and colds, give flu shots, physicals for sports participation, etc. at a fraction of the costs of a visit to a doctor.  I guess if you have to wait months to get surgery on a cancerous prostate, getting medical attention for a cut may seem like a luxury available only to the fabulously wealthy.  But in Texas at least, middle and working class people* can afford to have a cut treated by a nurse practitioner or a PA with the training prevent infections and to recognize the rare case where such an injury should be seen at an emergency room.  I'm sure you'll tell me why that's actually a bad thing . . .  Roll Eyes

When government artificially keeps costs down, supply has no reason to rise and entrepreneurs have no reason to seek creative ways to reduce prices.  So artificial rationing by definition is a part of any government control of health care. 

*Poor people, i.e. those who do not work at all, by definition get everything free so they may have to endure the artificial shortages.  But you know - gift horse and all . . .

 


  

I used to be burnsred . . .
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JW
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Re: healthcare rationing.
Reply #6 - Dec 12th, 2017 at 2:43pm
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SnarkySack wrote on Dec 12th, 2017 at 2:09pm:
How does a Canadian doctor look a patient in the eye and tell him that his prostate cancer surger will have to wait? 


Are you really this ignorant?  The same as a US doctor.  Do you know what the success rate on prostate cancer "surgery" is, and what the options are?

I suggest you look them up before you turn 55.
  
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SnarkySack
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Re: healthcare rationing.
Reply #7 - Dec 12th, 2017 at 2:53pm
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JW wrote on Dec 12th, 2017 at 2:43pm:
Are you really this ignorant?  The same as a US doctor.  Do you know what the success rate on prostate cancer "surgery" is, and what the options are?
What does that have to do with being put on a waiting list?

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I suggest you look them up before you turn 55.
I just did about six months ago.  When I was fifty-three, I got a diagnosis of esophageal cancer.  My gastroenterologist who found it sent me to an oncologist that afternoon.  She said, "I wasn't  able to get you an appointment for your first round of chemo until Friday because the tumor board doesn't meet until Thursday (it was Tuesday).  Monday, you start daily radiation."  I said, "Friday?  Can't it wait until Spring Break in two weeks?"  She said, "You like your aorta?  You better get started before you lose it." 

I looked up what the aorta does when I got home and yeah, no I don't want to lose that sucker.  Imagine my gastroenterologist had told me, "Not to worry.  I've put you on one of our finest waiting lists for a government oncologist!"  If I had lived to see my gastroenterologist instead of dying on a waiting list for that.

Between the waiting list for the gastroenterologist, for the oncologist and for the surgeon, my cancer would have at least gone to another stage which would have then put me on a waiting list for palliative care instead of surgery.  On the bright side, that would have kept cost down per capita!

  

I used to be burnsred . . .
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SnarkySack
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Re: healthcare rationing.
Reply #8 - Dec 12th, 2017 at 2:54pm
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Double again.
  

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Don_G
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Re: healthcare rationing.
Reply #9 - Dec 12th, 2017 at 3:17pm
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SnarkySack wrote on Dec 12th, 2017 at 2:53pm:
What does that have to do with being put on a waiting list?

I just did about six months ago.  When I was fifty-three, I got a diagnosis of esophageal cancer.  My gastroenterologist who found it sent me to an oncologist that afternoon.  She said, "I wasn't  able to get you an appointment for your first round of chemo until Friday because the tumor board doesn't meet until Thursday (it was Tuesday).  Monday, you start daily radiation."  I said, "Friday?  Can't it wait until Spring Break in two weeks?"  She said, "You like your aorta?  You better get started before you lose it." 

I looked up what the aorta does when I got home and yeah, no I don't want to lose that sucker.  Imagine my gastroenterologist had told me, "Not to worry.  I've put you on one of our finest waiting lists for a government oncologist!"  If I had lived to see my gastroenterologist instead of dying on a waiting list for that.

Between the waiting list for the gastroenterologist, for the oncologist and for the surgeon, my cancer would have at least gone to another stage which would have then put me on a waiting list for palliative care instead of surgery.  On the bright side, that would have kept cost down per capita!



If it's not ahhell kicking your ass around the block then it's JW. And if it's not JW then it's Ron Paul.

I think you lack an ally who wants to stay with you. Even Jeff knows when it's time to fold his hand.

Try the pig, he can at least help out with some troll pictures.

fuuuuuuuuukkkkk, talking to Americans!
  
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