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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) healthcare rationing. (Read 577 times)
ahhell
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Re: healthcare rationing.
Reply #10 - Dec 12th, 2017 at 4:03pm
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SnarkySack wrote on Dec 12th, 2017 at 2:09pm:
As you always do when you lose, yes.

How does a Canadian doctor look a patient in the eye and tell him that his prostate cancer surger will have to wait?  Do they typically commiserate with the poor bugger or do they defend the system by quoting the government-produced infant mortality stats?

The more free the market, the more supply can rise to meet demand.  Therefore there is no rationing needed in a free market because innovation in delivering goods and services takes place.  For example in Texas, some of our grocery stores have clinics who treat cuts and colds, give flu shots, physicals for sports participation, etc. at a fraction of the costs of a visit to a doctor.  I guess if you have to wait months to get surgery on a cancerous prostate, getting medical attention for a cut may seem like a luxury available only to the fabulously wealthy.  But in Texas at least, middle and working class people* can afford to have a cut treated by a nurse practitioner or a PA with the training prevent infections and to recognize the rare case where such an injury should be seen at an emergency room.  I'm sure you'll tell me why that's actually a bad thing . . .  Roll Eyes

When government artificially keeps costs down, supply has no reason to rise and entrepreneurs have no reason to seek creative ways to reduce prices.  So artificial rationing by definition is a part of any government control of health care. 

*Poor people, i.e. those who do not work at all, by definition get everything free so they may have to endure the artificial shortages.  But you know - gift horse and all . . .  
There will be rationing in a market system too, less because as you note, supply will rise but there is a lag and then supply is rationed by going to the highest bidder.  This will be true unless society essentially has infinite resources at which point everything becomes effectively free.
  
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SnarkySack
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Re: healthcare rationing.
Reply #11 - Dec 12th, 2017 at 4:24pm
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ahhell wrote on Dec 12th, 2017 at 4:03pm:
There will be rationing in a market system too, less because as you note, supply will rise but there is a lag and then supply is rationed by going to the highest bidder.
Which causes prices to rise, which motivates more sellers to enter the market which causes prices to go down.  It's an almost boringly predictable cycle, but it is the best way to ensure the optimum use of scarce resources.  Can "everyone" get health care in a free market system?  Sure can, just like everyone can get food.  Will everyone get health care in a free market?   There will always be a certain number of people who flat refuse to work even to feed themselves or to pay for medical care.  In a truly free market, friends, relatives and private charities would take care of people who refuse to work.  Until they tire of it. 

Obviously, by saying, "Ok, we (the government) will feed you and give you free care then!" we increase the number of work refusers exponentially.  

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This will be true unless society essentially has infinite resources at which point everything becomes effectively free. 
Somethings already are effectively free, like air and water and sellers can only add value by changing their form or transporting them somewhere.  Most other things have to be worked at to be of any use to humans, but again - the free market provides for that nearly perfectly.


  

I used to be burnsred . . .
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Jeff
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Re: healthcare rationing.
Reply #12 - Dec 12th, 2017 at 4:34pm
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ahhell wrote on Dec 12th, 2017 at 4:03pm:
There will be rationing in a market system too...
No. Only government can have the power to ration, and it's critical to the cause of Liberty to not let them do it.

It's not only Liberty that is at stake. Rationing by governments almost always cause people to go hungry and starve. Usually the very young and very old first...
  
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AlayneLeung
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Re: healthcare rationing.
Reply #13 - Dec 15th, 2017 at 12:26pm
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The real problems in the United States regarding healthcare are:

1, taxes or fines, for bad products, bad services, and bad behaviors, haven't been increased or applied to them; that has caused less money for healthcare jobs and that causes less doctors and less nurses and less healthcare locations to exist. 

And 2, good highly sensed education standards have only been sort of recently been started by Congress; a lack of high quality education before standards get set results to persons not taking care of themselves healthily, so that causes healthcare costs to increase, and that causes taxes to pay for Medicare.
  
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ahhell
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Re: healthcare rationing.
Reply #14 - Dec 15th, 2017 at 12:46pm
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Jeff wrote on Dec 12th, 2017 at 4:34pm:
No. Only government can have the power to ration, and it's critical to the cause of Liberty to not let them do it.

It's not only Liberty that is at stake. Rationing by governments almost always cause people to go hungry and starve. Usually the very young and very old first...

Ok, call it something else then but in a world of limited resources some system will determine how those resources will be distributed.  Freemarkets tend to do so more efficiently and encourage better use of those resources than controlled markets.
  
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Don_G
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Re: healthcare rationing.
Reply #15 - Dec 15th, 2017 at 1:06pm
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ahhell wrote on Dec 15th, 2017 at 12:46pm:
Ok, call it something else then but in a world of limited resources some system will determine how those resources will be distributed.  Freemarkets tend to do so more efficiently and encourage better use of those resources than controlled markets.


The US free market isn't doing it more efficiently and that is why the millennials are making a noise about communism.

They have the right idea but they make the mistake of supporting communism because they have been thoroughly schooled to think as socially responsible government as only being that.

American attitudes are starting t change and that was brought about by Bernie. The reason we know that if was something that had to be nipped in the bud is because of the 'commie' demonizing laid on Bernie.

The facade is starting to be broken down but the notion is being totally rejected on this forum.

Libertarians understand there is something dreadfully wrong but they can't tear themselves free of extreme right dogma. They aren't able to see another option.
  
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ahhell
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Re: healthcare rationing.
Reply #16 - Dec 15th, 2017 at 2:37pm
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The US does not have a free market, especially not in health care.
  
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Jeff
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Re: healthcare rationing.
Reply #17 - Dec 15th, 2017 at 4:45pm
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ahhell wrote on Dec 15th, 2017 at 12:46pm:
Ok, call it something else then but in a world of limited resources some system will determine how those resources will be distributed.  Freemarkets tend to do so more efficiently and encourage better use of those resources than controlled markets.
Yes? That's why we argue for economic liberty. One reason anyway, the other being that liberty is a human good.
  
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Don_G
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Re: healthcare rationing.
Reply #18 - Dec 15th, 2017 at 6:00pm
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Jeff wrote on Dec 15th, 2017 at 4:45pm:
Yes? That's why we argue for economic liberty. One reason anyway, the other being that liberty is a human good.


That ideal isn't nay closer now than it's every been. Most show complete disgust and resignation over the system and loudly voice that it needs to be changed.

Especially libertarians!

Isn't it time you started to understand that you can't have economic liberty under the fixed system as it is?

Your country is likely the richest country in the world. Why is it that you ordinary folk aren't getting a piece of the pie?

Would less government interference give you more, or would it give you less freedom. What if government sold out completely to big business and Trump's friends? That would be leaving you alone wouldn't it!
  
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SkyChief
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Re: healthcare rationing.
Reply #19 - Dec 15th, 2017 at 6:30pm
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Would less government interference give you more, or would it give you less freedom.

Freedom is inversely proportional to the size of government - the bigger government becomes, the less freedom we have.  This is always the case.

Because, what does government do when they are in session?  They make Laws, of course.  Laws which take away our freedoms.

A long time ago, they at least pretended to follow constitutional guidelines, but in October 2001 they stopped pretending.

The PATRIOT Act was passed. It was in direct violation of the 4th Amendment.  Supreme Court pretended not to notice.  I'm glad it happened, though.   It was on that day I realized that government was no longer acting on behalf of the People. So I became a Libertarian. 
  
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