Libertarian's Forum
Libertarian Forum to discuss politics and free market economics.
Libertarian's ForumLibertarian's ForumFreedom Forum › Are the Libertarians here Emotionally Prepared to Watch People Starve
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 12 Send TopicPrint
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Are the Libertarians here Emotionally Prepared to Watch People Starve (Read 1081 times)
SnarkySack
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 2771
Location: Republic of Me
Joined: Sep 11th, 2017
Are the Libertarians here Emotionally Prepared to Watch People Starve
Dec 18th, 2017 at 9:48pm
Print Post  
If they flat refuse to work?

Private charities are not known for taking care of people who are so blatant in their insistence on being members of the dependency class, but government embraces them in exchange for their votes.  In a libertarians system, how will we even bury them once we allow them to die?

  

I used to be burnsred . . .
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
The Opposition
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 6298
Joined: Apr 30th, 2014
Re: Are the Libertarians here Emotionally Prepared to Watch People Starve
Reply #1 - Dec 18th, 2017 at 9:55pm
Print Post  
SnarkySack wrote on Dec 18th, 2017 at 9:48pm:
If they flat refuse to work?

Private charities are not known for taking care of people who are so blatant in their insistence on being members of the dependency class, but government embraces them in exchange for their votes.  In a libertarians system, how will we even bury them once we allow them to die?


They're not just going to passively die.

They will start to steal.

They will aggress.

There are millions of them.

Whatever you're paying to keep these people alive, quintuple it. You will be paying that for private security.
  

Making Sci-Fi great again since 2063.

Not taking Jeff seriously until he admits this is animal abuse (which he says should be illegal): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WE-IT7_CaE4
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
SnarkySack
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 2771
Location: Republic of Me
Joined: Sep 11th, 2017
Re: Are the Libertarians here Emotionally Prepared to Watch People Starve
Reply #2 - Dec 18th, 2017 at 9:57pm
Print Post  
The Opposition wrote on Dec 18th, 2017 at 9:55pm:
They're not just going to passively die.

They will start to steal.

They will aggress.

There are millions of them.

Whatever you're paying to keep these people alive, quintuple it. You will be paying that for private security.


A logical and pragmatic point.

However, I'm not one to become completely amoral when dollars are involved.  If I was, life would be easier as the government is remarkably easy to defraud.

Paying people to do nothing harms them far more than it harms me.  I can't treat them that way merely to save a few dollars.



  

I used to be burnsred . . .
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
The Opposition
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 6298
Joined: Apr 30th, 2014
Re: Are the Libertarians here Emotionally Prepared to Watch People Starve
Reply #3 - Dec 18th, 2017 at 10:10pm
Print Post  
SnarkySack wrote on Dec 18th, 2017 at 9:57pm:
A logical and pragmatic point.

However, I'm not one to become completely amoral when dollars are involved.  If I was, life would be easier as the government is remarkably easy to defraud.

Paying people to do nothing harms them far more than it harms me.  I can't treat them that way merely to save a few dollars.


An irrefutable moralist case.

Just remember that it won't end with dollars.

The welfare class will attack the people too poor to pay for private security, but still productive. They'll form gangs. They'll have numbers. This sort of behaviour has been set in stone since ancient Sumeria. Civilisations have fallen through no fault of their own, but to waves of disenfranchised poor people.

I respect your case, but it will mean the end, I think.

I even expect that the welfare class will be able to ransack and steal enough to pay for private security themselves, if this becomes an issue.

Throughout history, people who are just barely able to sustain have been easy targets for those who demand much more than sustenance.
  

Making Sci-Fi great again since 2063.

Not taking Jeff seriously until he admits this is animal abuse (which he says should be illegal): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WE-IT7_CaE4
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
SkyChief
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 5611
Joined: Aug 18th, 2014
Re: Are the Libertarians here Emotionally Prepared to Watch People Starve
Reply #4 - Dec 18th, 2017 at 10:23pm
Print Post  
The Opposition wrote on Dec 18th, 2017 at 9:55pm:
They're not just going to passively die.

They will start to steal.

They will aggress.

There are millions of them.

Whatever you're paying to keep these people alive, quintuple it. You will be paying that for private security.

Your cynicism preceeds you.

Left to our own accord, most of us will care for those in need.  It's just human nature to do that. 

Problems arise when government intervenes and takes the wealth from one group of people and re-distributes it to another.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
The Opposition
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 6298
Joined: Apr 30th, 2014
Re: Are the Libertarians here Emotionally Prepared to Watch People Starve
Reply #5 - Dec 18th, 2017 at 10:55pm
Print Post  
SkyChief wrote on Dec 18th, 2017 at 10:23pm:
Your cynicism preceeds you.


Thank you! I didn't expect to get an ego-stroking of that magnitude today. This is how I feel now:



SkyChief wrote on Dec 18th, 2017 at 10:23pm:
Left to our own accord, most of us will care for those in need.  It's just human nature to do that. 

Problems arise when government intervenes and takes the wealth from one group of people and re-distributes it to another.


Right, and that problem is growing every day. If it had always been "fend for yourself" there wouldn't have ever got to be millions of people who couldn't support themselves.

It's a huge deal. It will be a huger deal if we cut these people off, precisely because the problem has been allowed to get so out-of-control.
  

Making Sci-Fi great again since 2063.

Not taking Jeff seriously until he admits this is animal abuse (which he says should be illegal): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WE-IT7_CaE4
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
SkyChief
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 5611
Joined: Aug 18th, 2014
Re: Are the Libertarians here Emotionally Prepared to Watch People Starve
Reply #6 - Dec 19th, 2017 at 1:17am
Print Post  
The Opposition wrote on Dec 18th, 2017 at 10:55pm:
It will be a huger deal if we cut these people off, precisely because the problem has been allowed to get so out-of-control.

I would argue that "the problem" is caused by government intervention.  Before government got involved, we were able to take (reasonable) care of the needy.  We still do that even though the government discourages it.

Our local church offers 2 meals a day to anyone who is in need.  No credentials required.  All they need to do is show up. 

The locals donate food and clothing. Some offer thier time and labor to cook and prepare the meals.  Same as they did a hundred years ago. 

It was never broke.  But government tried to "fix" it.   [insert sad trombone sound here]
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Billie
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 28153
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Are the Libertarians here Emotionally Prepared to Watch People Starve
Reply #7 - Dec 19th, 2017 at 7:49am
Print Post  
SnarkySack wrote on Dec 18th, 2017 at 9:48pm:
If they flat refuse to work?

Private charities are not known for taking care of people who are so blatant in their insistence on being members of the dependency class, but government embraces them in exchange for their votes.  In a libertarians system, how will we even bury them once we allow them to die?

Societies where people have economic freedom tend to be prosperous, so there are options for people other than starvation or charity.

If someone simply refuses to work, and no one is offering to help them (which is unlikely since there are charities that feed people without asking any questions at all) keep a close eye on them. They are the type of person who is probably going to steal something. It's why so many towns passed laws against vagrancy.

But really, other than at times when governments created huge economic collapses, or in times of plague or war or general failure of the crops, there never were people starving in the streets.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Billie
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 28153
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Are the Libertarians here Emotionally Prepared to Watch People Starve
Reply #8 - Dec 19th, 2017 at 7:51am
Print Post  
SnarkySack wrote on Dec 18th, 2017 at 9:48pm:
In a libertarians system...


I'm sure I've asked you several times, what do you think a "libertarian system" is?

From everything you say, I have to believe you think a "libertarian system"=anarchy.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Don_G
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 9158
Location: British Columbia
Joined: May 8th, 2017
Re: Are the Libertarians here Emotionally Prepared to Watch People Starve
Reply #9 - Dec 19th, 2017 at 12:03pm
Print Post  
SnarkySack wrote on Dec 18th, 2017 at 9:57pm:
A logical and pragmatic point.

However, I'm not one to become completely amoral when dollars are involved.  If I was, life would be easier as the government is remarkably easy to defraud.

Paying people to do nothing harms them far more than it harms me.  I can't treat them that way merely to save a few dollars.


Socially responsible words I didn't think I would ever hear from you burnsred. I'm wondering if it's a scam?

Anyway, if it's sincere then good for you.

I think you are also smart enough to understand the downside of cutting the people off welfare. It's been demonstrated throughout history in many democracies but it's been many years since any democracy has wanted to try to do it.

Isn't this a perfect thread for the holiday season and for libertarians to discuss. Dicken's, A Christmas Carol is so applicable to what is being contemplated in the US.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 12
Send TopicPrint
 
Libertarian's ForumLibertarian's ForumFreedom Forum › Are the Libertarians here Emotionally Prepared to Watch People Starve
Libertarian's Forum

Libertarian's Forum Information Rules, Agreement and Privacy Policy