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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Let's Solve the Slavery Issue Once and For All (Read 1407 times)
SkyChief
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Re: Let's Solve the Slavery Issue Once and For All
Reply #10 - Dec 20th, 2017 at 11:38am
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The Opposition wrote on Dec 19th, 2017 at 11:04pm:
I will state that I am 100% in favour of no POC ever being forced into involuntary servitude for ANY reason.

From January 1st to April 15th, I am forced to do labor for the government.  I am ordered to surrender 100% of my earnings within that time period.  My servitude is not voluntary - it is forced on me with the threat of prison and/or property forfeiture.

This IS slavery, right?
  
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kaz
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Re: Let's Solve the Slavery Issue Once and For All
Reply #11 - Dec 20th, 2017 at 11:42am
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SkyChief wrote on Dec 20th, 2017 at 11:38am:
From January 1st to April 15th, I am forced to do labor for the government.  I am ordered to surrender 100% of my earnings within that time period.  My servitude is not voluntary - it is forced on me with the threat of prison and/or property forfeiture.

This IS slavery, right?


It's about what the money is used for, not just that you are taxed.  No, even as a libertarian, 100% of taxes are not slavery
  

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Sicklers Dink
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Re: Let's Solve the Slavery Issue Once and For All
Reply #12 - Dec 20th, 2017 at 12:02pm
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kaz wrote on Dec 20th, 2017 at 11:42am:
It's about what the money is used for, not just that you are taxed.  No, even as a libertarian, 100% of taxes are not slavery


All pigs support slavery.
  
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Re: Let's Solve the Slavery Issue Once and For All
Reply #13 - Dec 20th, 2017 at 12:05pm
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Sicklers Dink wrote on Dec 20th, 2017 at 12:02pm:
All pigs support slavery.


That's some serious smack.  I mean it might get my five year old nephew upset ...
  

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Jeff
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Re: Let's Solve the Slavery Issue Once and For All
Reply #14 - Dec 20th, 2017 at 1:31pm
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SnarkySack wrote on Dec 20th, 2017 at 10:58am:
I agree with that statement also without reservation.

Any reason you couldn't sign off on:


"Slavery under any circumstances, present, historical or hypothetical is always irredeemably wrong and should never be supported in any way no matter what the proposed justification.  Slavery is defined as involuntary servitude, not for the purpose of lawful punishment of a crime."

What would be your objection to that, if any?

A state of involuntary servitude can exist where a person who is not a slave is forced to work for another. Requiring a person to work and pay restitution for a theft might be an example, where the payment of restitution is not punishment but merely the repayment of a debt.

Slaves are owned. They are property. They can be bought and sold and bred like livestock and their children sold. They may be killed for any reason that their owner sees as adequate. Their rights have been stripped from them completely.

My objection is to the defining of slavery as involuntary servitude. They are different things.
  
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Sicklers Dink
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Re: Let's Solve the Slavery Issue Once and For All
Reply #15 - Dec 20th, 2017 at 1:39pm
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Jeff wrote on Dec 20th, 2017 at 1:31pm:
A state of involuntary servitude can exist where a person who is not a slave is forced to work for another. Requiring a person to work and pay restitution for a theft might be an example, where the payment of restitution is not punishment but merely the repayment of a debt.

Slaves are owned. They are property. They can be bought and sold and bred like livestock and their children sold. They may be killed for any reason that their owner sees as adequate. Their rights have been stripped from them completely.

My objection is to the defining of slavery as involuntary servitude. They are different things.


Good for you in ferreting out his dishonest purpose!  Burnsred comes off as a pretty low form of life when you add up all he's said, starting right from his beginning on this forum. He's had to modify that quite a bit from his original extremism. But he's always going to have to wear it.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Let's Solve the Slavery Issue Once and For All
Reply #16 - Dec 20th, 2017 at 2:36pm
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SnarkySack wrote on Dec 20th, 2017 at 7:53am:
Interesting.

So what would be the consequences for committing crimes?


Nothing.

Just have some places where you can't live if you have a criminal record. This is perfectly fine in libertarianism.

No one will break a law, ever again. They know where they're going.

If they complain that the places they live are shit, every single time they complain, the no-criminals places will swap with them. It will do exactly nothing.

SkyChief wrote on Dec 20th, 2017 at 11:38am:
From January 1st to April 15th, I am forced to do labor for the government.  I am ordered to surrender 100% of my earnings within that time period.  My servitude is not voluntary - it is forced on me with the threat of prison and/or property forfeiture.

This IS slavery, right?


If they're forcing labour, yes. Really they force tribute and allow you to have some of it back by trading labour.

I agree that it's a mostly semantic difference, though.
  

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SnarkySack
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Re: Let's Solve the Slavery Issue Once and For All
Reply #17 - Dec 20th, 2017 at 3:36pm
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Jeff wrote on Dec 20th, 2017 at 1:31pm:
A state of involuntary servitude can exist where a person who is not a slave is forced to work for another. Requiring a person to work and pay restitution for a theft might be an example, where the payment of restitution is not punishment but merely the repayment of a debt.
In my opinion restitution is part of the punishment.  Unless you support involuntary servitude for running up credit card debt and not being able to pay it?

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Slaves are owned. They are property. They can be bought and sold and bred like livestock and their children sold. They may be killed for any reason that their owner sees as adequate. Their rights have been stripped from them completely.
So only that kind of absolute chattel status for a human being is slavery?  It would not be slavery for a person to kidnap another person and force them to fight in gladiatorial events as long as they didn't breed them and sell their children and if the freed them after they had won so many fights?  I'm not asking if that would be legal, I'm asking if it would be slavery to use force to require that kind of srevitude or if it would be called something besides slavery. 

Now Jeff, read carefully:  I know that your instinct will be to dodge that question and to explain why it would be wrong to kidnap people and force them to fight like fighting cocks or fighting dogs.  I'm not asking if it is wrong. I know you think it is wrong to do that.  And that you think it is illegal.  I'm asking if it is slavery or not slavery under your definition.  BTW, I say it is slavery under my definition in case you are only wanting to do that Socratic irony thing.


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My objection is to the defining of slavery as involuntary servitude. They are different things.
So the Constitution does not ban slavery?


  

I used to be burnsred . . .
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Jeff
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Re: Let's Solve the Slavery Issue Once and For All
Reply #18 - Dec 20th, 2017 at 5:34pm
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The Opposition wrote on Dec 20th, 2017 at 2:36pm:
Nothing.

Just have some places where you can't live if you have a criminal record.
Earth?
  
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Jeff
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Re: Let's Solve the Slavery Issue Once and For All
Reply #19 - Dec 20th, 2017 at 5:39pm
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SnarkySack wrote on Dec 20th, 2017 at 3:36pm:
In my opinion restitution is part of the punishment.
That's because you refuse to learn.

Restitution is making you whole from the damage you have sustained.

If you stole my chainsaw, giving it back would be restitution...

Are you arguing that you are being punished by being forced to give my chainsaw back to me?

Punishment is obviously different from restitution. Any rational person can easily grasp the difference.
  
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