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Snarky Sack
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Libertarianism: The First Steps.
Dec 22nd, 2017 at 12:32pm
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First step is cutting off foreign aid to ingrates.  That can be done overnight with no harm to the U.S.  For countries that are not constantly bad-mouthing the U.S., we can be more deliberative, since the reason they don't bad-mouth is that they actually need our help.  Still, we have to cut off them also but with time for them to adjust.   Each country's cutoff schedule can be judged by how much we have allowed them to be dependent on us. 

Next step would be to cut off all welfare to immigrants, whether legal or illegal.  Unlike American layabouts, they have someplace to go and I would not object to offering them train or bus rides back to their own nations. Since their own country is where the majority of them send the majority of their welfare money, it should be waiting there for them.

Next step, which Trump is already working on, is eliminating useless and harmful regulations that no one even knows about until they are slapped with penalties for not following them.  The money we save buy not supporting foreign ingrates outside and inside the U.S. will more than make up for the fines these bizarre regulations generate.

As far as building the border wall, I used to favor that but now I'm mildly opposed for reasons I will explain on another thread.  Suffice to say that this thread is about less government not more.






  

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Don_G
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Re: Libertarianism: The First Steps.
Reply #1 - Dec 22nd, 2017 at 12:48pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Dec 22nd, 2017 at 12:32pm:
First step is cutting off foreign aid to ingrates.  That can be done overnight with no harm to the U.S.  For countries that are not constantly bad-mouthing the U.S., we can be more deliberative, since the reason they don't bad-mouth is that they actually need our help.  Still, we have to cut off them also but with time for them to adjust.   Each country's cutoff schedule can be judged by how much we have allowed them to be dependent on us. 

Next step would be to cut off all welfare to immigrants, whether legal or illegal.  Unlike American layabouts, they have someplace to go and I would not object to offering them train or bus rides back to their own nations. Since their own country is where the majority of them send the majority of their welfare money, it should be waiting there for them.

Next step, which Trump is already working on, is eliminating useless and harmful regulations that no one even knows about until they are slapped with penalties for not following them.  The money we save buy not supporting foreign ingrates outside and inside the U.S. will more than make up for the fines these bizarre regulations generate.

As far as building the border wall, I used to favor that but now I'm mildly opposed for reasons I will explain on another thread.  Suffice to say that this thread is about less government not more.


Good thread and well said from a libertarian's pov.

So I would like to start by taking on the first issue you've raised the point out how some libertarians have already missed to point on the US general assembly vote, which has obviously prompted you to post this.

So while stopping aid to foreign countries is your cause, and a cause I have no interest in debating here, you're missing the real issue. That is, the US buys votes at the UN, and that has become evident with Haley's threat. It's a tactic that has been played close to the chest many times at the UNGA and the UNSC but never has it been so overtly expressed. And it was expressed at exactly the wrong time, as we now see with the result.

I can't allow you to spin it any other way. And I keep in mind your purpose and the expressed purpose of libertarians. I just am able to understand that your purpose can't be served by your country right now because of the importance of having lots of friends.

In that explanation it should now be evident why the libertarian agenda, which seems to be similar to Trump's supporters' agenda, can't proceed. Simply put, the US needs to buy friends.

That's not meant as an insult, it's meant as fact, in just the same way China and Russia need to buy friends. It appears those two did just that with this resolution.

Your other issues are also of interest to me as debating points but I'll stop with the first one for now.
  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: Libertarianism: The First Steps.
Reply #2 - Dec 22nd, 2017 at 12:55pm
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Good thread and well said from a libertarian's pov.

So I would like to start by taking on the first issue you've raised the point out how some libertarians have already missed to point on the US general assembly vote, which has obviously prompted you to post this.

So while stopping aid to foreign countries is your cause, and a cause I have no interest in debating here, you're missing the real issue. That is, the US buys votes at the UN, and that has become evident with Haley's threat. It's a tactic that has been played close to the chest many times at the UNGA and the UNSC but never has it been so overtly expressed. And it was expressed at exactly the wrong time, as we now see with the result.
I agree with all of your facts.  No doubt UN votes are bought as almost all votes are.  My question about your opinion is how is this "exactly the wrong time" from the perspective of putting America first?

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I can't allow you to spin it any other way. And I keep in mind your purpose and the expressed purpose of libertarians. I just am able to understand that your purpose can't be served by your country right now because of the importance of having lots of friends.


With friends like that, who needs parasitical maggots who feed on us while insulting us? 

Why is there "importance of having lots of friends" from a libertarian perspective?  Friends like that cost way too much money.

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In that explanation it should now be evident why the libertarian agenda, which seems to be similar to Trump's supporters' agenda, can't proceed. Simply put, the US needs to buy friends.
Again, why?  Or are you doing that thing were you say things you don't believe to get attention?

  

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Don_G
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Re: Libertarianism: The First Steps.
Reply #3 - Dec 22nd, 2017 at 1:16pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Dec 22nd, 2017 at 12:55pm:
I agree with all of your facts.  No doubt UN votes are bought as almost all votes are.  My question about your opinion is how is this "exactly the wrong time" from the perspective of putting America first?


I wasn't expressly referring to the vote as it pertains to Israel. I'm referring to the taking of sides at the GA which has happened in this instance and is damaging to the US. Haley, prompted by Trump, chose the wrong issue to use as a threat. And now we will see if it becomes an instance of there being great damage to the US cause.

Let's not lose sight of your original submission on saving money supporting nations that don't support the US.


Quote:
With friends like that, who needs parasitical maggots who feed on us while insulting us? 


I get the feeling you're expressing. Think of it as the same as personal friends. Of the 128 that opposed the US, there's no gain in referring to them as maggots. And I'm not saying that they may or may not be. I'm saying that the US doesn't have any better choices. They will suffer no repercussions, as was the case in another vote where the GC turned against the US so solidly. Iraq.

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Why is there "importance of having lots of friends" from a libertarian perspective?  Friends like that cost way too much money.


I think there is no importance of having countries as friends from the libertarian's "expressed" POV. There are many good reasons why any country needs lots of friends from a strategic POV.

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Again, why?  Or are you doing that thing were you say things you don't believe to get attention?



I'm not interested in doing that shit with you and never have been. If that's the way you want to be now then you can go fuk yourself. I was hoping for better and still am with caution.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Libertarianism: The First Steps.
Reply #4 - Dec 22nd, 2017 at 3:57pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Dec 22nd, 2017 at 12:32pm:
First step is cutting off foreign aid to ingrates.
Our government was not granted power to give our tax money to any foreign government, whether they might be grateful for the transfer of our wealth or not.

Our Constitutional law is already far ahead of your first step when it comes to protecting our rights.

Your proposal, which isn't really a proposal at all, in fact sounds like a Republican talking point from decades ago.

  
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Re: Libertarianism: The First Steps.
Reply #5 - Dec 23rd, 2017 at 1:46pm
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Jeff wrote on Dec 22nd, 2017 at 3:57pm:
Our government was not granted power to give our tax money to any foreign government, whether they might be grateful for the transfer of our wealth or not.


Exactly.  Clearly, our constitution is not our governing document.  We follow its guidelines on how to conduct elections.  Other than that, our elected officials, non-elected officials and mid level bureaucrats do as they please and nobody seems able to stop them.  That has been going on at least since the Whiskey Rebellion, unless you can show me the clause in which the president can raise an army to enforce federal taxes. 

So, why do you put so much faith in that document?

Quote:
Our Constitutional law is already far ahead of your first step when it comes to protecting our rights.


So what?  We should watch our money vanish into third world hellholes but comfort ourselves with the knowledge that the constitution doesn't really say they can do that? 

Quote:
Your proposal, which isn't really a proposal at all, in fact sounds like a Republican talking point from decades ago.



Yes, at one time the GOP used to talk a good game anyway.


  

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Don_G
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Re: Libertarianism: The First Steps.
Reply #6 - Dec 23rd, 2017 at 1:56pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Dec 23rd, 2017 at 1:46pm:
Exactly.  Clearly, our constitution is not our governing document.  We follow its guidelines on how to conduct elections.  Other than that, our elected officials, non-elected officials and mid level bureaucrats do as they please and nobody seems able to stop them.  That has been going on at least since the Whiskey Rebellion, unless you can show me the clause in which the president can raise an army to enforce federal taxes. 

So, why do you put so much faith in that document?


So what?  We should watch our money vanish into third world hellholes but comfort ourselves with the knowledge that the constitution doesn't really say they can do that? 


Yes, at one time the GOP used to talk a good game anyway.




Both of you need to stop spinning your wheels on issues of no consequence. Any fool knows that your government is buying loyalty with it's foreign aid and that's not going to stop.

If the US doesn't buy loyalty then China and Russia will. And do!

Aside from that necessary money well spent, there is the money that is spent on the military and from US citizens' POV, it's also money well spent.

What does it matter what some stupid libertarian thinks is the reason for foreign aid and thinks it should be stopped?

Try getting back to the basic question and the cause of why the US needs to buy loyalty. I would suggest a very good place to start would be the Ukraine. That would lead to pretty well all the answers in a nutshell!

And so let me ask you both: Why is the US spending money on the Ukraine and should it continue to spend that money? And what does that money buy your country?
  
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Re: Libertarianism: The First Steps.
Reply #7 - Dec 23rd, 2017 at 2:58pm
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Both of you need to stop spinning your wheels on issues of no consequence. Any fool knows that your government is buying loyalty with it's foreign aid and that's not going to stop.

If the US doesn't buy loyalty then China and Russia will. And do!

Aside from that necessary money well spent, there is the money that is spent on the military and from US citizens' POV, it's also money well spent.

What does it matter what some stupid libertarian thinks is the reason for foreign aid and thinks it should be stopped?

Try getting back to the basic question and the cause of why the US needs to buy loyalty. I would suggest a very good place to start would be the Ukraine. That would lead to pretty well all the answers in a nutshell!

And so let me ask you both: Why is the US spending money on the Ukraine and should it continue to spend that money? And what does that money buy your country?


There is no benefit to these countries being "loyal" to the U.S. and if there was, we're not getting it because their votes show that they have no loyalty. 

We're wasting our money on foreigners but if you really are Canadian, I can see why you would want to keep the dollars flowing in.
  

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Don_G
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Re: Libertarianism: The First Steps.
Reply #8 - Dec 23rd, 2017 at 3:15pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Dec 23rd, 2017 at 2:58pm:
There is no benefit to these countries being "loyal" to the U.S. and if there was, we're not getting it because their votes show that they have no loyalty. 

We're wasting our money on foreigners but if you really are Canadian, I can see why you would want to keep the dollars flowing in.


They're loyal burnsred. The problem you can't understand and accept is that your government (TRUMP) put a question to them that they couldn't in any good conscience obey the wishes of the US.

And for that reason they will receive no punishment for not supporting the US Nicki Haley fukked up bigtime and it was at Trump's direction. I would think she wasn't that stupid. (or is she?)

Write it off as a big mistake by Haley and Trump. It can't be seen as anything else now. And make no mistake, there won't be any punishing over it and if there was to any consequence, the deep state would do Trump becuase he would be just too unsuitable and too much of a loose cannon for US foreign policy purposes. Period!
  
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Re: Libertarianism: The First Steps.
Reply #9 - Dec 23rd, 2017 at 5:23pm
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They're loyal burnsred. The problem you can't understand and accept is that your government (TRUMP) put a question to them that they couldn't in any good conscience obey the wishes of the US.

And for that reason they will receive no punishment for not supporting the US Nicki Haley fukked up bigtime and it was at Trump's direction. I would think she wasn't that stupid. (or is she?)

Write it off as a big mistake by Haley and Trump. It can't be seen as anything else now. And make no mistake, there won't be any punishing over it and if there was to any consequence, the deep state would do Trump becuase he would be just too unsuitable and too much of a loose cannon for US foreign policy purposes. Period!


So what do we get for their loyalty that is worth all the money we spend to get it?
  

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