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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Libertarian New Year's Resolution: "Exercise" Your Rights! (Read 492 times)
burnsred
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Re: Libertarian New Year's Resolution: "Exercise" Your Rights!
Reply #70 - Jan 2nd, 2018 at 8:41pm
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Don_G wrote on Jan 2nd, 2018 at 11:56am:
It's not nitpicking to say that I.D.'ers were wrong on irreducible complexity. How can it be more complicated than that? Christians would do themselves the best favour possible if they distanced themselves from the I.D.'ers. They were completely discredited and it's because of their own attempts to be dishonest.
I really don't care how you deal with that burnsred, it just happens to be the truth. But please do try to rebut it and we can spend lots of time on the topic!
As usual, you use a flood of non sequiturs to avoid spending more time on the topic.


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Nobody has suggested that 'some' species arrived on earth by natural selection. That sentence makes me think you're very confused on Darwinism means?


Where are you quoting the word "some" from?

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You have to mean that there is a possibility that 'life' arrived on earth via a space craft or a meteorite or by some other means? Which has nothing to do with what Darwin said at all.


You brought it up.  You want to backtrack now, I don't blame you.  It's not an easy position to defend.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Libertarian New Year's Resolution: "Exercise" Your Rights!
Reply #71 - Jan 3rd, 2018 at 2:16am
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Jeff wrote on Jan 2nd, 2018 at 6:10pm:
I don't know shit about it except what I read in the literature. Nobody has found a direct ancestor for any of the earliest hominids. They might have fallen from the sky.


They might have, but they probably didn't.

Star Trek might be real, but it probably isn't.
  

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Not taking Jeff seriously until he admits this is animal abuse (which he says should be illegal): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WE-IT7_CaE4
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Jeff
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Re: Libertarian New Year's Resolution: "Exercise" Your Rights!
Reply #72 - Jan 3rd, 2018 at 7:25am
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The Opposition wrote on Jan 3rd, 2018 at 2:16am:
They might have, but they probably didn't.

Star Trek might be real, but it probably isn't.
"Probably" and "might have" aren't scientific conclusions, but that's all that can be said about the earliest hominids, they probably evolved from some earlier mammal of some sort, but they might have just appeared miraculously like the universe probably might have after the "singularity" did whatever it did.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Libertarian New Year's Resolution: "Exercise" Your Rights!
Reply #73 - Jan 3rd, 2018 at 7:26am
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Jeff wrote on Jan 2nd, 2018 at 5:52pm:
Isn't this more what this thread is about?

If California violates people's rights, is not the national government obligated to step in and protect them?
Does nobody think civil disobedience would work to restore respect for rights in Kalifornia?
  
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burnsred
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Re: Libertarian New Year's Resolution: "Exercise" Your Rights!
Reply #74 - Jan 3rd, 2018 at 9:51am
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Jeff wrote on Jan 3rd, 2018 at 7:26am:
Does nobody think civil disobedience would work to restore respect for rights in Kalifornia?


It would be far better to use the democratic process to affect changes that would restore our liberties.  Not just in Kalifornia but everywhere in the nation.  Because, as libertarians, we want a government that actively honors and protects our right.  A government that bans freedom but doesn't punish us harshly if we openly ignore those bans is a distant second best option.

However . . . civil disobedience can certainly be a factor in preventing government's riding roughshod over us.  We would want lawmakers to say, "we can't ban ________ .  They'll ignore us and laugh at us." 

Also, when a law is patently unjust yet supported by either a majority or a vocal minority with strong political pull on that one issue, it is not only practical at times to ignore it, but sometimes the only moral option.  A perfect example of such a law would be the fugitive slave clause of the U.S. Constitution.  The overwhelming majority of the founders either insisted on that clause or supported it for political purposes.  As did the lawmakers in all states who joined the Union.  The only way a morally responsible libertarian could have dealt with it was to have ignored it and faced any consequences.

  
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Jeff
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Re: Libertarian New Year's Resolution: "Exercise" Your Rights!
Reply #75 - Jan 3rd, 2018 at 10:23am
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burnsred wrote on Jan 3rd, 2018 at 9:51am:
It would be far better to use the democratic process to affect changes that would restore our liberties. 
You mean somehow break the TwoParties' legal stranglehold over the electoral process? That would be a good start.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Libertarian New Year's Resolution: "Exercise" Your Rights!
Reply #76 - Jan 3rd, 2018 at 10:26am
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burnsred wrote on Jan 3rd, 2018 at 9:51am:
Also, when a law is patently unjust yet supported by either a majority or a vocal minority with strong political pull on that one issue, it is not only practical at times to ignore it, but sometimes the only moral option.  A perfect example of such a law would be the fugitive slave clause of the U.S. Constitution.  The overwhelming majority of the founders either insisted on that clause or supported it for political purposes.  As did the lawmakers in all states who joined the Union.  The only way a morally responsible libertarian could have dealt with it was to have ignored it and faced any consequences.

The slave states insisted on it, the free states accepted it because they thought it was necessary. People in the free states did ignore it.
  
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burnsred
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Re: Libertarian New Year's Resolution: "Exercise" Your Rights!
Reply #77 - Jan 3rd, 2018 at 11:43am
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Jeff wrote on Jan 3rd, 2018 at 10:26am:
The slave states insisted on it, the free states accepted it because they thought it was necessary. People in the free states did ignore it.


Actually, there were no free states since all states signed on to the fugitive slave clause.  There were states in which slavery was practiced widely and states in which slavery was less widespread, but no state freed escaped slaves as soon as they crossed into its territory.  Many people in states in which slavery was widely practiced also ignored those laws.  Your regionalist prejudices don't really further the debate.  Insisting that it was only a few evil but highly influential slaveholders who forced freedom lovers like Washington and Jefferson to accept slavery is bizarrely counter-factual.

Point is that when a brand new nation's key constitutional provisions must be disobeyed by anyone with a moral stance on the importance of freedom, that nation is hardly a libertarian one or even a free one.

  
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Re: Libertarian New Year's Resolution: "Exercise" Your Rights!
Reply #78 - Jan 3rd, 2018 at 12:48pm
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Jeff wrote on Jan 3rd, 2018 at 7:25am:
"Probably" and "might have" aren't scientific conclusions, but that's all that can be said about the earliest hominids, they probably evolved from some earlier mammal of some sort, but they might have just appeared miraculously like the universe probably might have after the "singularity" did whatever it did.


It's now a lot more than just 'probably' and 'likely' Jeff. DNA evidence shows definitively, the link between earlier hominids and man or chimps. And the branch is now even understood by science looking at the evidence of the missing chromosome and how it cam about.

If you don't understand that then you'll have to break with your dogma to find out. Burnsred may understand so he may tell you all about it. I'll provide a link but you'll have to look.

Be careful, the link will be the work of Satan. Ooooooooo!

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2012/07/19/the-mystery-of-the-missing-chr...
  
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Re: Libertarian New Year's Resolution: "Exercise" Your Rights!
Reply #79 - Jan 3rd, 2018 at 3:09pm
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Jeff wrote on Jan 3rd, 2018 at 7:25am:
"Probably" and "might have" aren't scientific conclusions,


You're aware that the scientific method is a form of inductive rather than deductive reasoning, right? Other than math and logic, you're not going to get more than a probably. We have P-values to measure the probably.

Jeff wrote on Jan 3rd, 2018 at 7:25am:
but that's all that can be said about the earliest hominids, they probably evolved from some earlier mammal of some sort,


Humans are obviously primates.

Jeff wrote on Jan 3rd, 2018 at 7:25am:
but they might have just appeared miraculously like the universe probably might have after the "singularity" did whatever it did.


Right, and Star Trek might be real. If you think it is you'll get a nice white coat.

I would have significantly less problems with religion if all nonscientific, irrational beliefs were treated alike. Release the harmless nutjobs from the nuthouses and 90% of my problems with religion go poof. Lock up the violent religious people and there go my other 10%.
  

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Not taking Jeff seriously until he admits this is animal abuse (which he says should be illegal): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WE-IT7_CaE4
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