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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) New Trump Executive Order. (Read 494 times)
kaz
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Re: New Trump Executive Order.
Reply #20 - Dec 29th, 2017 at 10:41pm
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[quote author=19252812023D3D223E24392422234D0 link=1514572980/19#19 date=1514603832]

Limiting the power of the Federal government is in no possible way a "right" of citizens of the world.  It's a limit imposed by the American people, not a "right" of other people.  Do you grasp the difference?  WE, citizens of the United States limit the power of our government.  That isn't a "right" of a non-citizen.

That you offer the guy who mows your lawn a glass of water doesn't give him a "right" to a glass of water.  It's something you offer as a decent person.  My God man, and you pretend you're an anarchist
  

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kaz
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Re: New Trump Executive Order.
Reply #21 - Dec 29th, 2017 at 10:44pm
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The Opposition wrote on Dec 29th, 2017 at 10:17pm:
I don't think that except in specific situations. For example, if the Constitution specifically limits the government against doing something to anyone, rather than just a citizen, then yes, even the non-citizen would have Constitutional rights.



That you offer the guy who mows your lawn a glass of water doesn't give him a "right" to a glass of water.  My God man, and you pretend you're an anarchist
  

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Matt Stone - I hate conservatives, but I really f'ing hate liberals
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The Opposition
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Re: New Trump Executive Order.
Reply #22 - Dec 29th, 2017 at 10:48pm
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kaz wrote on Dec 29th, 2017 at 10:44pm:
That you offer the guy who mows your lawn a glass of water doesn't give him a "right" to a glass of water.  My God man, and you pretend you're an anarchist


Constitutional rights aren't actually rights, but limitations on government power.

What you just said applies to the citizen, too, doesn't it?
  

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kaz
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Re: New Trump Executive Order.
Reply #23 - Dec 29th, 2017 at 10:55pm
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The Opposition wrote on Dec 29th, 2017 at 10:48pm:
Constitutional rights aren't actually rights, but limitations on government power


No shit.  Point?
  

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Jeff
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Re: New Trump Executive Order.
Reply #24 - Dec 30th, 2017 at 8:14am
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kaz wrote on Dec 29th, 2017 at 8:58pm:
And what you just said was that anyone in the world has rights ... under the American Constitution!!!!!

Everyone in the world has rights. Natural rights, human rights, God given rights, call them what you will, it's a fundamental of our idea of government that everyone has rights and governments are instituted to protect those rights.

Our Constitution does not give anyone rights, nor can it. The rights pre-exist the Constitution.

What our government is required to do is to protect everyone's rights while they are in a place that comes under the jurisdiction of our Constitution.

I have never said and do not believe that our government has any authority or legitimate power to protect anyone's rights when they are outside the jurisdiction of our Constitution.

Perhaps there is a moral obligation to protect citizens who go abroad, but visiting China and falling afoul  of Chinese authorities does not obligate our government to start a war with China in order to save you. You still have rights when you are in China, but the government of China infringes and denies many rights.
  
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Jeff
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Re: New Trump Executive Order.
Reply #25 - Dec 30th, 2017 at 8:22am
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The Opposition wrote on Dec 29th, 2017 at 10:17pm:
I don't think that except in specific situations. For example, if the Constitution specifically limits the government against doing something to anyone, rather than just a citizen, then yes, even the non-citizen would have Constitutional rights.
Yes. Not only is our government given no power to, for instance, limit anyone's freedom of speech, it is specifically prohibited from infringing the Right to speak freely.

Because one of our foundational ideas is that everyone is born with rights, no-one's right to freedom of speech may be infringed or denied by our government.

There are exceptions relating to people in the service of the government, but there are no exceptions based on citizenship or location.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: New Trump Executive Order.
Reply #26 - Dec 31st, 2017 at 1:12am
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Jeff wrote on Dec 30th, 2017 at 8:22am:
Yes. Not only is our government given no power to, for instance, limit anyone's freedom of speech, it is specifically prohibited from infringing the Right to speak freely.

Because one of our foundational ideas is that everyone is born with rights, no-one's right to freedom of speech may be infringed or denied by our government.

There are exceptions relating to people in the service of the government, but there are no exceptions based on citizenship or location.


I agree but in practice you have to realise that if some Russian spy is about to go on a tell-all interview and reveal all America's secrets, the American government is going to snipe him off.

If you want no government at all you can call this wrong. If you want any government, you have to recognise its right to preserve its existence rather than lie down and die to the first assault that comes along.
  

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kaz
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Re: New Trump Executive Order.
Reply #27 - Dec 31st, 2017 at 8:30am
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Jeff wrote on Dec 30th, 2017 at 8:14am:
Our Constitution does not give anyone rights, nor can it. The rights pre-exist the Constitution


Strawman.  I didn't say the Constitution gives rights.  It protects rights.  I said "rights under the Constitution."  Just like every other time you dim wits bring up this point.  You want to argue it with a liberal, go ahead.  But you're just preaching to the choir.

So since you require an agonizingly detailed version of the point, the US Constitution only authorizes the Federal government to protect the rights of US Citizens, and then primarily ones in the United States.  Iranians in Iran don't have their rights protected under the US Constitution.

Do Iranian citizens have natural rights?  Sure.  But the US government is not authorized by the American people to protect them.  Get it?  No, huh ...

  

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Matt Stone - I hate conservatives, but I really f'ing hate liberals
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kaz
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Re: New Trump Executive Order.
Reply #28 - Dec 31st, 2017 at 8:35am
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Jeff wrote on Dec 30th, 2017 at 8:14am:
Everyone in the world has rights. Natural rights, human rights, God given rights, call them what you will, it's a fundamental of our idea of government that everyone has rights and governments are instituted to protect those rights.

Our Constitution does not give anyone rights, nor can it. The rights pre-exist the Constitution.

What our government is required to do is to protect everyone's rights while they are in a place that comes under the jurisdiction of our Constitution.

I have never said and do not believe that our government has any authority or legitimate power to protect anyone's rights when they are outside the jurisdiction of our Constitution.

Perhaps there is a moral obligation to protect citizens who go abroad, but visiting China and falling afoul  of Chinese authorities does not obligate our government to start a war with China in order to save you. You still have rights when you are in China, but the government of China infringes and denies many rights.


This whole thing you're writing to me is no f'ing shit.  This is what our Constitution is about.  How many times are you going to say this mind numbingly obvious point to me?
  

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Matt Stone - I hate conservatives, but I really f'ing hate liberals
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Jeff
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Re: New Trump Executive Order.
Reply #29 - Dec 31st, 2017 at 9:01am
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The Opposition wrote on Dec 31st, 2017 at 1:12am:
I agree but in practice you have to realise that if some Russian spy is about to go on a tell-all interview and reveal all America's secrets, the American government is going to snipe him off.

If you want no government at all you can call this wrong. If you want any government, you have to recognise its right to preserve its existence rather than lie down and die to the first assault that comes along.
I mentioned exceptions for people in the service of government.

Is there such a thing as a "spy" outside of a state of war?

I guess since we've been in a permanent state of "war" since the end of WWII, anybody who wants to know what our government is doing (including citizens who are paying for it) can be called a "spy".

Everything authoritarian governments do is a "State Secret". Probably because authoritarian governments are always at war with their own people.
  
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