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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Libertarian Book Recommendations (Read 384 times)
Desiderius
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Re: Libertarian Book Recommendations
Reply #20 - Dec 31st, 2017 at 6:09pm
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Don_G wrote on Dec 31st, 2017 at 5:46pm:
I would pass on that one desiderius. I've read it and was quite disappointed in it. Here's a book review I did for it and as you see, it's only worth a few words. I think you'll find what I'm talking about in the first 10 or 11 pages.

review: I opened this book with an open mind, even so skewed more positive than I naturally should think. By its conclusion I'd wadeed through a text that described a deluded ideology, expressed with poor writing and positioned with the weakest argument I'd ever encountered.

From what I've seen of you so far and what others have said about you, it seems as if you're a Socialist as opposed to a Libertarian. So you'll have to forgive me if I don't take your opinion too seriously.
  
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Re: Libertarian Book Recommendations
Reply #21 - Dec 31st, 2017 at 6:13pm
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Desiderius wrote on Dec 31st, 2017 at 6:09pm:
From what I've seen of you so far and what others have said about you, it seems as if you're a Socialist as opposed to a Libertarian. So you'll have to forgive me if I don't take your opinion too seriously.


Glad to have you on board anyway. So do tell us of some of your own ideas on libertarianism and why you want to be one.

Please excuse my insisting on that because of this forum being spammed by one member with 4 names running at the same time.
  
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Desiderius
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Re: Libertarian Book Recommendations
Reply #22 - Dec 31st, 2017 at 6:20pm
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Don_G wrote on Dec 31st, 2017 at 6:13pm:
Glad to have you on board anyway. So do tell us of some of your own ideas on libertarianism and why you want to be one.

Please excuse my insisting on that because of this forum being spammed by one member with 4 names running at the same time.

Thanks for your welcome.
My ideas of Libertarianism, which I imagine you'll disagree with, are a small government whose duty is to protect it's citizens (military, police etc.) however I'm not sure yet how much else they should provide. I believe in a free market, free speech and in letting people do as they like as long as it does not hurt anyone else (not including abortion which I strongly disagree with).
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Libertarian Book Recommendations
Reply #23 - Dec 31st, 2017 at 6:24pm
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Desiderius wrote on Dec 31st, 2017 at 12:30pm:
I've been thinking about reading that although the length of it has been a bit daunting. Why is this book so controversial? It seems to get a lot of hate from liberals especially.


If you're looking for something shorter try Hayek, The Road to Serfdom.

I like Human Action, by Mises, but that's just me.

Modern liberals (leftists) don't like Atlas Shrugged because liberals think selfishness is immoral, while Ayn Rand thinks selfishness is permissible, and even necessary. Oil and water, basically.

I think the leftist philosophy is consistent, and therefore admirable, it's just very difficult to follow, and like all morality, it's not fair. For example, the welfare queen gets six kids on my dime while I will struggle to afford two. This thought is considered to be selfish on my part and not on the part of the welfare queen. Money can and should be redistributed so people are more equal, but reproductive success just isn't on that table. It's okay for the welfare queen to look at me and say, "He has more money, take some of it and make us more equal," but it's not okay for me to look at her and say, "She has more offspring; allow me the same reproductive success to make us more equal." My thought is selfish (and therefore evil), while hers is not.

What is defined as selfishness is no more fair than what is defined as aggression. This is why I'm in the camp of just letting everybody be selfish.

Modern liberals and libertarians are actually strikingly similar. While libertarians believe in the NAP - Non-Aggression Principle - modern liberals can be thought of to believe in the NSP: Non-Selfishness Principle.

Desiderius wrote on Dec 31st, 2017 at 6:20pm:
Thanks for your welcome.
My ideas of Libertarianism, which I imagine you'll disagree with, are a small government whose duty is to protect it's citizens (military, police etc.)


That is also valid libertarianism.
  

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Not taking Jeff seriously until he admits this is animal abuse (which he says should be illegal): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WE-IT7_CaE4
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Desiderius
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Re: Libertarian Book Recommendations
Reply #24 - Dec 31st, 2017 at 6:31pm
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The Opposition wrote on Dec 31st, 2017 at 6:24pm:
If you're looking for something shorter try Hayek, The Road to Serfdom.

I like Human Action, by Mises, but that's just me.

Modern liberals (leftists) don't like Atlas Shrugged because liberals think selfishness is immoral, while Ayn Rand thinks selfishness is permissible, and even necessary. Oil and water, basically.

I think the leftist philosophy is consistent, and therefore admirable, it's just very difficult to follow, and like all morality, it's not fair. For example, the welfare queen gets six kids on my dime while I will struggle to afford two. This thought is considered to be selfish on my part and not on the part of the welfare queen. Money can and should be redistributed so people are more equal, but reproductive success just isn't on that table. It's okay for the welfare queen to look at me and say, "He has more money, take some of it and make us more equal," but it's not okay for me to look at her and say, "She has more offspring; allow me the same reproductive success to make us more equal." My thought is selfish (and therefore evil), while hers is not.

What is defined as selfishness is no more fair than what is defined as aggression. This is why I'm in the camp of just letting everybody be selfish.

Modern liberals and libertarians are actually strikingly similar. While libertarians believe in the NAP - Non-Aggression Principle - modern liberals can be thought of to believe in the NSP: Non-Selfishness Principle.


That is also valid libertarianism.

Those recommendations look good, I'll add them to the list.  Smiley
I have to say that while I disagree with stealing and redistributing wealth, I also think that selfishness is immoral so I disagree with Rand on that one. Thanks for the explanation though, that clears things up.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Libertarian Book Recommendations
Reply #25 - Dec 31st, 2017 at 6:50pm
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Desiderius wrote on Dec 31st, 2017 at 6:31pm:
I have to say that while I disagree with stealing and redistributing wealth, I also think that selfishness is immoral so I disagree with Rand on that one. Thanks for the explanation though, that clears things up.


There's nothing stopping you from believing in the NAP and the NSP. That's what I do.

It will only lead to conflicts when discussing the outcomes of politics - in other words, what one should force others to do.

For example, a man has stolen to pay for a cure for his child's illness (in fact I think this was the plot of one of the older Spiderman movies). The thief has aggressed, however, the victim (selfishly) demands punishment. What should the government do?

It's a conflict.

However, if you are the man with the dying child, and you believe in both the NAP and the NSP, you simply let your child die because it's wrong to steal. If you're the rich victim, you let the other fellow steal because selfishness is wrong.

As long as you don't involve government, there's no conflict.
  

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Not taking Jeff seriously until he admits this is animal abuse (which he says should be illegal): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WE-IT7_CaE4
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Desiderius
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Re: Libertarian Book Recommendations
Reply #26 - Dec 31st, 2017 at 6:54pm
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The Opposition wrote on Dec 31st, 2017 at 6:50pm:
There's nothing stopping you from believing in the NAP and the NSP. That's what I do.

It will only lead to conflicts when discussing the outcomes of politics - in other words, what one should force others to do.

For example, a man has stolen to pay for a cure for his child's illness (in fact I think this was the plot of one of the older Spiderman movies). The thief has aggressed, however, the victim (selfishly) demands punishment. What should the government do?

It's a conflict.

However, if you are the man with the dying child, and you believe in both the NAP and the NSP, you simply let your child die because it's wrong to steal. If you're the rich victim, you let the other fellow steal because selfishness is wrong.

As long as you don't involve government, there's no conflict.

I suppose that's part of the appeal of libertarianism, it removes all these complex issues by simply taking the government out of the equation.
  
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Re: Libertarian Book Recommendations
Reply #27 - Dec 31st, 2017 at 6:59pm
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Desiderius wrote on Dec 31st, 2017 at 6:54pm:
I suppose that's part of the appeal of libertarianism, it removes all these complex issues by simply taking the government out of the equation.


Right, and you don't have to believe that there should be no government. Some libertarians believe that there should be some government, but that it should be minimal.

Each group will call the other group not real libertarians.

Ignore this.

Different people engage in different sorts of dick-measuing. Supergenuises like me do it with IQ. Some people do it with money. Some people do it with clothes, or the inverse of their weight. Libertarians tend to do it with the old I'm-more-libertarian-than-you.

Everyone does do this, though, so I'm not really badmouthing it. I'm just saying that in this situation, it can cause misunderstandings.
  

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Not taking Jeff seriously until he admits this is animal abuse (which he says should be illegal): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WE-IT7_CaE4
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Jeff
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Re: Libertarian Book Recommendations
Reply #28 - Jan 1st, 2018 at 7:07am
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Desiderius wrote on Dec 31st, 2017 at 6:31pm:
Those recommendations look good, I'll add them to the list.  Smiley
I have to say that while I disagree with stealing and redistributing wealth, I also think that selfishness is immoral so I disagree with Rand on that one. Thanks for the explanation though, that clears things up.
Rational self interest is what Rand advocated. The heroes of her novels weren't selfish. Their rational self interest allowed them to prosper which in turn permitted them to help others in real ways.
It was her villains who were selfish, feeling entitled to live on the productive labor of others, stolen for them by the government.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Libertarian Book Recommendations
Reply #29 - Jan 1st, 2018 at 7:17am
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Desiderius wrote on Dec 31st, 2017 at 12:43pm:
I seem to agree with most aspects of Libertarianism but before I call myself a Libertarian I'd like to have a better understanding of it and politics in general as well as where Libertarianism differs with Conservatism because I tend to agree with them a lot too.
Conservatives still talk as if their political goals are limited government and a free economy, but since the time of Barry Goldwater, when the Republican Party purged libertarian thinking conservatives, Party Conservatives have abandoned limited government and a free economy as realities that they are willing to vote for. They just talk about them to get votes and to try to pretend they aren't actually "progressives", which most of them are.

Even the Goldwater conservatives in general thought using government power to try to make people more "moral" from their point of view was a good and necessary thing.

Anyway, modern libertarians do have a lot of common ground with conservatives, but on issues of non-intervention into people's personal lives by government, we also share ground with liberals... Real liberals, not authoritarian "progressives" calling themselves liberal.
  
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