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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Libertarian Book Recommendations (Read 628 times)
Don_G
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Re: Libertarian Book Recommendations
Reply #30 - Jan 1st, 2018 at 12:58pm
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Jeff wrote on Jan 1st, 2018 at 7:17am:
Conservatives still talk as if their political goals are limited government and a free economy, but since the time of Barry Goldwater, when the Republican Party purged libertarian thinking conservatives, Party Conservatives have abandoned limited government and a free economy as realities that they are willing to vote for. They just talk about them to get votes and to try to pretend they aren't actually "progressives", which most of them are.

Even the Goldwater conservatives in general thought using government power to try to make people more "moral" from their point of view was a good and necessary thing.

Anyway, modern libertarians do have a lot of common ground with conservatives, but on issues of non-intervention into people's personal lives by government, we also share ground with liberals... Real liberals, not authoritarian "progressives" calling themselves liberal.


There's a good counter argument to say that big business, as well as many small businesses, are getting prposterously rich off of the labour of the people.

And they're not accepting that they have to pay back to the system which is making them rich.

The country or the system doesn't belong to big business, it's owned by the people and is only loaned to businesses to enable them to contribute to the common prosperity and wealth.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Libertarian Book Recommendations
Reply #31 - Jan 1st, 2018 at 1:53pm
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There's a good counter argument to say that big business, as well as many small businesses, are getting prposterously rich off of the labour of the people.


No, no, it's the manipulation of "money" by the Federal Reserve Bank that is making the rulers rich. That's what government central banks are designed to do.
  
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Don_G
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Re: Libertarian Book Recommendations
Reply #32 - Jan 1st, 2018 at 2:27pm
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Jeff wrote on Jan 1st, 2018 at 1:53pm:
No, no, it's the manipulation of "money" by the Federal Reserve Bank that is making the rulers rich. That's what government central banks are designed to do.


I can accept that. The end result is the same.

So then do you want to expand on that from a libertarian's POV?

I think it will give me an opportunity to hear you speak from a libertarian's POV.

And I'm not sure you've ever done that in any detail. Now's a good time to start. Or tell me you have?
  
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Jeff
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Re: Libertarian Book Recommendations
Reply #33 - Jan 1st, 2018 at 2:32pm
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I can accept that. The end result is the same.

So then do you want to expand on that from a libertarian's POV?


Again?

Sound money. Money backed by something real so the government and it's central bank can't manipulate the value of money.
Market based interest rates, so that the cost of borrowing and the profit from investing are controlled by the amount of real money available.
  
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Don_G
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Re: Libertarian Book Recommendations
Reply #34 - Jan 1st, 2018 at 2:45pm
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Jeff wrote on Jan 1st, 2018 at 2:32pm:
Again?

Sound money. Money backed by something real so the government and it's central bank can't manipulate the value of money.
Market based interest rates, so that the cost of borrowing and the profit from investing are controlled by the amount of real money available.

Again!

As I told you, same result. Workers are being fukked out of fair wages because your ruling class have found ways to cheat them out of a fair piece of the American pie, legally.

And so you have as much as admitted that now and that is progress.

Now I'll continue to tell you how to change the system you hate and which you continually bitch and complain about. You should complain and you should be able to handle a Canadian reinforcing it for you. But you can't handle that!
  
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Jeff
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Re: Libertarian Book Recommendations
Reply #35 - Jan 1st, 2018 at 2:53pm
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Again!

As I told you, same result. Workers are being fukked out of fair wages because your ruling class have found ways to cheat them out of a fair piece of the American pie, legally.


No, not "legally".
We never granted any power to our government to have a central bank create fiat money and control its value, or to artificially set interest rates.
Neither is an unapportioned tax on wages and salaries legal.

It was regressive government under FDR that turned our Constitution on it's head and used the color of law to screw us, helped by earlier regressive governments that defined wages and salaries as "income" and decided that government, in order to make "progress" must have a central bank and fiat money.
  
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Don_G
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Re: Libertarian Book Recommendations
Reply #36 - Jan 1st, 2018 at 3:00pm
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Jeff wrote on Jan 1st, 2018 at 2:53pm:
No, not "legally".
We never granted any power to our government to have a central bank create fiat money and control its value, or to artificially set interest rates.
Neither is an unapportioned tax on wages and salaries legal.




Jeff, you may not have granted the right to do it legally but you haven't mandated by law that they can't. So they screw the people legally.

Quote:
It was regressive government under FDR that turned our Constitution on it's head and used the color of law to screw us.


If you want to blame FDR then I'm good with that. It could be true but I'm not interested enough to find out.

I'm only a leftist to you Americans. In Canada I would have to be considered a rightist because I'm not a socialist or a communist. The government I support is a capitalist government. Nobody is going to accept the extremist view that Canada is a socialist country.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Libertarian Book Recommendations
Reply #37 - Jan 1st, 2018 at 3:04pm
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Jeff, you may not have granted the right to do it legally but you haven't mandated by law that they can't.
You can't seem to grasp the idea of a government constituted with limited enumerated powers. If the Constitution doesn't grant a power, the government doesn't have it.
  
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Don_G
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Re: Libertarian Book Recommendations
Reply #38 - Jan 1st, 2018 at 3:20pm
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Jeff wrote on Jan 1st, 2018 at 3:04pm:
You can't seem to grasp the idea of a government constituted with limited enumerated powers. If the Constitution doesn't grant a power, the government doesn't have it.


I'm grasping it totally and completely and I even promote it for my own government.

If government is unlimited then pass laws to make it limited. If it's already acting illegally then do something to press the legal issue that's being ignored.

Does that suggest to you that you need to make use of some level of government in order to police another level of government? I think the only other alternative would be illegal action or maybe revolution.

Maybe some libertarians will have some ideas? Let's ask them but tell them that their ideas have to be within the realms of what is actually achievable.

That's where the question come in isn't it. You are continually shooting a lot of their bullshit down on this forum aren't you! Me too! 
  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: Libertarian Book Recommendations
Reply #39 - Jan 1st, 2018 at 3:54pm
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I'm grasping it totally and completely and I even promote it for my own government.

If government is unlimited then pass laws to make it limited. If it's already acting illegally then do something to press the legal issue that's being ignored.

Does that suggest to you that you need to make use of some level of government in order to police another level of government? I think the only other alternative would be illegal action or maybe revolution.


You've started the new year off well, Don.  You have made an intelligent point there.  When the USSC in Marbury v. Madison granted itself the right to judge actions by the other two branches as consitutional or not, your question was answered.  By accepting that ruling, congress and the president ceded the responsibility for limiting government to a small number of lifetime appointed old men in robes.  After that, they felt free to expand government as much as they pleased, knowing that in most cases the old men would go along rather than risk having that power taken away.  They were right to be concerned that a president or congress wishing to grant themselves more power would make a move against the courts.  FDR did it with great success and the court has been a faithful rubber stamp to those who expand government power ever since.

The answer to who will stop government from going beyond its enumerated powers is that a libertarians system or even a constitutional one as Jeff advocates requires a people that understand the principles of limited government and will insist that they be followed. 

If a democratically elected government fails to buy the votes of those who expect government to provide them with wealth, it will be voted out the next year.  Which is why I will alter my statement to say that a libertarians system requires an electorate that understands the principles of limited government. 

Assuming that the permanent welfare-leisure class will not be dissuaded from its comfortably dependent lifestyle, the only alternative is to narrow the pool of voters to exclude those who can be counted on the vote themselves more and more money from the public treasury.


  

"I think I'll backtrack." - Jeff
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