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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Libertarian Book Recommendations (Read 446 times)
Don_G
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Re: Libertarian Book Recommendations
Reply #40 - Jan 1st, 2018 at 4:16pm
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SnarkySack wrote on Jan 1st, 2018 at 3:54pm:
You've started the new year off well, Don.  You have made an intelligent point there.  When the USSC in Marbury v. Madison granted itself the right to judge actions by the other two branches as consitutional or not, your question was answered.  By accepting that ruling, congress and the president ceded the responsibility for limiting government to a small number of lifetime appointed old men in robes.  After that, they felt free to expand government as much as they pleased, knowing that in most cases the old men would go along rather than risk having that power taken away.  They were right to be concerned that a president or congress wishing to grant themselves more power would make a move against the courts.  FDR did it with great success and the court has been a faithful rubber stamp to those who expand government power ever since.

The answer to who will stop government from going beyond its enumerated powers is that a libertarians system or even a constitutional one as Jeff advocates requires a people that understand the principles of limited government and will insist that they be followed. 

If a democratically elected government fails to buy the votes of those who expect government to provide them with wealth, it will be voted out the next year.  Which is why I will alter my statement to say that a libertarians system requires an electorate that understands the principles of limited government. 

Assuming that the permanent welfare-leisure class will not be dissuaded from its comfortably dependent lifestyle, the only alternative is to narrow the pool of voters to exclude those who can be counted on the vote themselves more and more money from the public treasury.




How can you expect me to do justice to your sincerity when there's more than one topic running and you want to expand them to side issues. The macd's issue. I can't so I'll give it short shrift.

Narrowing the pool of voters isn't an alternative in a democratic system. I hope I got your intent right on that?

Otherwise, the short answer is, that which has happened with your government is not common to all governments. And I don't hear any rational and possible solutions coming out of libertarians on this board.

Make you choice on a topic or hear that kind of answers.
  
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Billie
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Re: Libertarian Book Recommendations
Reply #41 - Jan 1st, 2018 at 5:15pm
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Don_G wrote on Jan 1st, 2018 at 4:16pm:
How can you expect me to do justice to your sincerity when there's more than one topic running and you want to expand them to side issues.
We all expect you to tell us in good time, at your convenience.
  
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SkyChief
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Re: Libertarian Book Recommendations
Reply #42 - Jan 1st, 2018 at 5:17pm
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Don_G wrote on Jan 1st, 2018 at 4:16pm:
...that which has happened with your government is not common to all governments. And I don't hear any rational and possible solutions coming out of libertarians on this board.

There have been plenty of rational solutions presented on this forum. (Spending cuts on entitlements and Military, limiting the scope and power of government, repealing the Income Tax, eliminating non-essential government programs, etc..) 

You choose to ignore them because they go against your statist/authoritarian agenda.
  
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Billie
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Re: Libertarian Book Recommendations
Reply #43 - Jan 1st, 2018 at 5:48pm
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Desiderius wrote on Dec 31st, 2017 at 6:31pm:
Those recommendations look good, I'll add them to the list.  Smiley
I have to say that while I disagree with stealing and redistributing wealth, I also think that selfishness is immoral so I disagree with Rand on that one. Thanks for the explanation though, that clears things up.
Is this really the last time a book was mentioned on this thread?

Have you thought at all about the concept of rational self interest? Were you able to reach conclusions?
  
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Don_G
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Re: Libertarian Book Recommendations
Reply #44 - Jan 1st, 2018 at 6:53pm
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SkyChief wrote on Jan 1st, 2018 at 5:17pm:
There have been plenty of rational solutions presented on this forum. (Spending cuts on entitlements and Military, limiting the scope and power of government, repealing the Income Tax, eliminating non-essential government programs, etc..) 

You choose to ignore them because they go against your statist/authoritarian agenda.


I don't choose to ignore anything you fool. I read and listen wholeheartedly to what is said on this board.

If at any time in the future one of those suggestions is put into practical use and is responsible for bringing about change, you can count on me to applaud it. None of it ever will because it's irrational extremist nonsense.

Pseudo-lIbertarians are essentially non-effective on bringing about change of any kind. They are a small minority with weird ideas that will never be seen as acceptable by the mainstream.

Libertarianism could someday propose an idea that could be acceptable to a socially responsible society but the US is far from having such a society in existence.

Socially responsible capitalism will create the beginning of such society, and it's likely to be demanded by the people soon!
  
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SnarkySack
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Re: Libertarian Book Recommendations
Reply #45 - Jan 1st, 2018 at 7:54pm
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Don_G wrote on Jan 1st, 2018 at 4:16pm:
How can you expect me to do justice to your sincerity when there's more than one topic running and you want to expand them to side issues. The macd's issue. I can't so I'll give it short shrift.


Yes, real life examples nearly always stymie the left wing rhetorical process. 

Quote:
Narrowing the pool of voters isn't an alternative in a democratic system. I hope I got your intent right on that?


Actually, by that definition, there is no such thing as a democratic system.  In the U.S. no one under eighteen may vote and neither can immigrants who have not earned citizenship nor convicted felons  in most states.  Not to mention that every nation in the world has a voter ID law, which as we know, prevents people with dark skins from voting.  I don't know of any nation that has universal suffrage.

Given that we narrow the pool of voters as a matter of course, the real question is the criteria.  I say that as long as we allow those who have made dependency a lifestyle choice to vote, we can expect a government that resolutely protects that choice.

If we want a government that protects our rights rather than encourages our dependency, we would have to avoid sharing the franchise with people whose sole aim in voting will be to preserve their welfare benefits.


Quote:
Make you choice on a topic or hear that kind of answers.
Again, the choice of which of my posts to respond to is entirely yours. 


  

I used to be burnsred . . .
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SkyChief
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Re: Libertarian Book Recommendations
Reply #46 - Jan 1st, 2018 at 8:26pm
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Don_G wrote on Jan 1st, 2018 at 6:53pm:
I don't choose to ignore anything you fool. I read and listen wholeheartedly to what is said on this board.

If at any time in the future one of those suggestions is put into practical use and is responsible for bringing about change, you can count on me to applaud it. None of it ever will because it's irrational extremist nonsense.

Pseudo-lIbertarians are essentially non-effective on bringing about change of any kind. They are a small minority with weird ideas that will never be seen as acceptable by the mainstream.

Libertarianism is an ideology.  It's an idea that embraces self-ownership and non-aggression.  It means that (a) government cannot lay claim to a person's wealth (or property).

Prior to the 16th Amendment [1913], we basically had that. 

We can have have self-ownership, or we can have Income Tax.  But never both.
  
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SnarkySack
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Re: Libertarian Book Recommendations
Reply #47 - Jan 1st, 2018 at 10:31pm
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SkyChief wrote on Jan 1st, 2018 at 8:26pm:
Libertarianism is an ideology.  It's an idea that embraces self-ownership and non-aggression.  It means that (a) government cannot lay claim to a person's wealth (or property).

Prior to the 16th Amendment [1913], we basically had that. 

We can have have self-ownership, or we can have Income Tax.  But never both.


But why is income tax different?  Why can any kind of tax not take away our self-ownership but income tax makes us slaves?

Not asking because I disagree.  Asking because I want to learn from one who has thought this through more than I.


  

I used to be burnsred . . .
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Billie
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Re: Libertarian Book Recommendations
Reply #48 - Jan 2nd, 2018 at 8:33am
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SnarkySack wrote on Jan 1st, 2018 at 10:31pm:
But why is income tax different?  Why can any kind of tax not take away our self-ownership but income tax makes us slaves?

Not asking because I disagree.  Asking because I want to learn from one who has thought this through more than I.


The main idea of requiring that Direct taxes be apportioned was to prevent such taxes from being used to take bread out of the mouths of ordinary working people, that is the majority.

All taxation is a dangerous tool for government, a necessary evil if we are to have a government that can protect our Rights and Liberty, which is why the people who wrote the Constitution tried so hard to limit the power of taxation.

Taxes on actual incomes, which were always viewed as Indirect because they taxed only income derived from the use of property and not the property itself, are required to be uniform. The idea behind this limitation is that the government will be prevented from showing any favoritism when applying any form of indirect tax... One region or state may not be favored over another, one business or type of business may not be favored over another.

The general idea of the entire scheme was that people working for wages and salaries would not be taxed at all unless they bought imported goods that had been taxed by an import tariff, and that all property owners who used their property to produce income, no matter where they lived or what sort of property they used to produce income would have their income taxed uniformly.

Because of the divided interests built into our Congress, where the people's representatives would both control all expenditures and have the interests of regular working people in mind, and the senators would be chosen by state legislators who were known to be, in general, people who owned property which provided them with incomes, there would be a constant tension that would prevent Congress from levying almost every tax no matter whether it was a Direct tax on working people's wages and salaries, a Direct tax on property merely because of its ownership, or an indirect tax on the incomes that wealthy people derived from the use of their property.

"Progressives" destroyed the balance in Congress between the "landed interests" with "incomes" and the people who worked to produce what they needed to live directly by their labor.

"Progressives" created a new meaning for what working people create or earn by working, relabeling it as "income" so that it might be taxed Directly without apportionment.

"Progressives" also perverted the meaning of "uniform" to allow them to grant exemptions to their cronies, to buy votes with "tax breaks" and top punish certain businesses and types of businesses.
  
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Don_G
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Re: Libertarian Book Recommendations
Reply #49 - Jan 2nd, 2018 at 11:36am
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So here's your explanation burnsred, just as Jeff says:

Quote:
"Progressives" created a new meaning for what working people create or earn by working, relabeling it as "income" so that it might be taxed Directly without apportionment.


Had progressives called it something else, such as maybe 'stuff tax' or 'peanuts tax' or 'big screen t.v. tax', then there would be no problem with income taxation!

One could ponder the question of just how would enough tax be collected from the people if it wasn't bases on their income? Then follow through with a detailed discussion on some of the ideas.

Not in libertarian land though, where angry snarling fills in for rational discussion.
  
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