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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) 18 States greet workers into new year by causing them to get fired (Read 745 times)
kaz
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18 States greet workers into new year by causing them to get fired
Dec 31st, 2017 at 1:05pm
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Yes, 18 States are raising the minimum wage on January 1.  The minimum wage when you think about it is one of the most cruel and pointless of all government programs.  It serves no purpose but getting workers fired.

So think about it.  If you are an employer (I've owned five businesses), you can hire one employee for $7.25 an hour, or a better employee for $10 an hour.  If option A serves my needs for the job, I hire the first worker.  If government takes away that option, I fire them and hire employee B.  Simple logic dictates that.

But no kaz, you're supposed to take home less money, not fire people.  No, I'm not doing that.

Oh, I also automate, outsource and streamline and get rid of other employees to fund the higher wages I need to pay.

And who needs a job to develop skills more than a low end worker?  It's for the left about government dependency.  You want a worker who betters himself if you're a leftist?  No, you want him by the short hairs, you want him dependent on government
  

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Matt Stone - I hate conservatives, but I really f'ing hate liberals
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Sicklers Dink
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Re: 18 States greet workers into new year by causing them to get fired
Reply #1 - Dec 31st, 2017 at 1:12pm
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Desiderius, is the hate and vitriol being demonstrated here going to be you and what you learn as libertarianism?

Can you hear the hate that has nothing at all with the priniciple that is being promoted?

Ask yourself if a libertarian needs to express 'hate' in order to promote an agenda. Can and should a libertarian express hope and goodness for all people, inlcuding those who are forced to work for wages on which he can't even feed his family and put a shirt on his children's backs?
  
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SkyChief
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Re: 18 States greet workers into new year by causing them to get fired
Reply #2 - Dec 31st, 2017 at 1:35pm
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Sicklers Dink wrote on Dec 31st, 2017 at 1:12pm:
Can and should a libertarian express hope and goodness for all people, inlcuding those who are forced to work for wages on which he can't even feed his family and put a shirt on his children's backs?

A libertarian should express hope for the pursuit of liberty and a free market.  As time goes by, these things get taken away in very small increments in hopes that nobody will notice.

Well some of us DO notice.  A gov't mandated minimum wage is counterproductive to a Free Market. It forces businesses to downsize their work force, or limit hours, and/or charge more for goods or services, all of which negatively impact the competitiveness for a business.

Kaz is right - minimum wage hikes are a job-killer.
  
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kaz
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Re: 18 States greet workers into new year by causing them to get fired
Reply #3 - Dec 31st, 2017 at 1:41pm
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Sicklers Dink wrote on Dec 31st, 2017 at 1:12pm:
those who are forced to work for wages on which he can't even feed his family and put a shirt on his children's backs?


Forced to work?  Who forces them to work?  WTF?

And if someone has a family with children and they won't show up on time, work hard or give a shit about their employer, then as an employer, is that my failure?  Or theirs?  Am I really expected to care about their family more than they do?
  

Greg Gutfeld - I became a conservative by being around liberals and I became a libertarian by being around conservatives

Matt Stone - I hate conservatives, but I really f'ing hate liberals
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SnarkySack
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Re: 18 States greet workers into new year by causing them to get fired
Reply #4 - Dec 31st, 2017 at 1:53pm
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kaz wrote on Dec 31st, 2017 at 1:05pm:
Yes, 18 States are raising the minimum wage on January 1.  The minimum wage when you think about it is one of the most cruel and pointless of all government programs.  It serves no purpose but getting workers fired.

So think about it.  If you are an employer (I've owned five businesses), you can hire one employee for $7.25 an hour, or a better employee for $10 an hour.  If option A serves my needs for the job, I hire the first worker.  If government takes away that option, I fire them and hire employee B.  Simple logic dictates that.

But no kaz, you're supposed to take home less money, not fire people.  No, I'm not doing that.


That's the fallacy that liberals embrace so  strongly that they can't be pried off of  it.  When government raises the minimum wage or mandates new spending on paperwork or controls prices or raises taxes on corporations, liberals believe that means CEO's and board members will just have to buy a smaller yacht next year and the common folk will reap the benefits.  That's their idea of closing the income inequality gap.

Never works that way.   Small businesses go out of business which slows job creation.  We saw that in the Obama years and now we see that eliminating regulations has the opposite affect.  Large businesses love over-regulation because they know that it prevents start-ups form competing with them so they can just pass those costs on to consumers anyway. 

That's why the large ISP's love net neutrality regulations.  Just keeping up with the record-keeping required to constantly prove that you're being "neutral" and the costs of attorneys to constantly fight the justice department would keep small ISP's out of the marketplace.


  

I used to be burnsred . . .
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Sicklers Dink
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Re: 18 States greet workers into new year by causing them to get fired
Reply #5 - Dec 31st, 2017 at 2:08pm
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SnarkySack wrote on Dec 31st, 2017 at 1:53pm:
That's the fallacy that liberals embrace so  strongly that they can't be pried off of  it.  When government raises the minimum wage or mandates new spending on paperwork or controls prices or raises taxes on corporations, liberals believe that means CEO's and board members will just have to buy a smaller yacht next year and the common folk will reap the benefits.  That's their idea of closing the income inequality gap.

Never works that way.   Small businesses go out of business which slows job creation.  We saw that in the Obama years and now we see that eliminating regulations has the opposite affect.  Large businesses love over-regulation because they know that it prevents start-ups form competing with them so they can just pass those costs on to consumers anyway. 

That's why the large ISP's love net neutrality regulations.  Just keeping up with the record-keeping required to constantly prove that you're being "neutral" and the costs of attorneys to constantly fight the justice department would keep small ISP's out of the marketplace.




That's all just too shallow for real libertarianism burnsred, and you just don't want to explore the issue more deeply. Sure some small businesses fail because of their inability to pay wages. I would suggest that most of those small businesses weren't viable to begin with and should have failed.

You won't entertain the idea that some businesses make millions or even billions while paying their workers less than minimum wage. Or more correctly, less then their ability to pay, which of course would result in decent standards of living for workers.

The libertarian can look at both sides of the equation and doesn't have to be dogmatic in expressing sympathy for an empolyer who starves his workforce. Likewise, be critical of a worker or workers' union that sinks the business over wage demands.

Therein lies the solution which is the collective agreement and both party's ability to bargain in good faith and  then be able to resort to arbitration of their differences.

It works burnsred! What you dogmatically promote doesn't work for long. You end up with a situation that has a lot in common with 19th. century England.
  
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kaz
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Re: 18 States greet workers into new year by causing them to get fired
Reply #6 - Dec 31st, 2017 at 2:23pm
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Sicklers Dink wrote on Dec 31st, 2017 at 2:08pm:
You won't entertain the idea that some businesses make millions or even billions while paying their workers less than minimum wage


It's my job as an employer to pay people what they are worth.  It's the job of the employee if they want more money to be worth more.  If they take a job from me, that means no one offered them a better deal.  I'm a hero, I gave them their best opportunity
  

Greg Gutfeld - I became a conservative by being around liberals and I became a libertarian by being around conservatives

Matt Stone - I hate conservatives, but I really f'ing hate liberals
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Sicklers Dink
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Re: 18 States greet workers into new year by causing them to get fired
Reply #7 - Dec 31st, 2017 at 2:29pm
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kaz wrote on Dec 31st, 2017 at 2:23pm:
It's my job as an employer to pay people what they are worth.  It's the job of the employee if they want more money to be worth more.  If they take a job from me, that means no one offered them a better deal.  I'm a hero, I gave them their best opportunity


So you think you can judge the worth of a human being?

If so then your workers would have the right to judge you and punish you for offering starvation wages. And if you don't negotiate a fair wage then also have the right to destroy your business by going on strike until you comply.

You'll have the right to have a government agency arbitrate the situation and find a mutually acceptable solution.
  
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kaz
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Re: 18 States greet workers into new year by causing them to get fired
Reply #8 - Dec 31st, 2017 at 2:51pm
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Sicklers Dink wrote on Dec 31st, 2017 at 2:29pm:
So you think you can judge the worth of a human being?


Well, since under the subject it's my business and all I'm deciding is what I should offer to pay them, who is better than me to make that determination?

Again, I'm their hero.  I deemed them to be worth more than anyone else did since I gave them their best offer

Sicklers Dink wrote on Dec 31st, 2017 at 2:29pm:
If so then your workers would have the right to judge you and punish you for offering starvation wages. And if you don't negotiate a fair wage then also have the right to destroy your business by going on strike until you comply.

You'll have the right to have a government agency arbitrate the situation and find a mutually acceptable solution.


If by this gibberish you mean they can quit if I don't pay them enough, you betcha they can.  That's how free markets work.  It's in my interest to keep the good employees happy.  The lazy, greedy ones like you?  Don't let the door hit you on the way out ...
  

Greg Gutfeld - I became a conservative by being around liberals and I became a libertarian by being around conservatives

Matt Stone - I hate conservatives, but I really f'ing hate liberals
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Jeff
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Re: 18 States greet workers into new year by causing them to get fired
Reply #9 - Dec 31st, 2017 at 4:27pm
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Sicklers Dink wrote on Dec 31st, 2017 at 2:29pm:
So you think you can judge the worth of a human being?
I've become pretty good at it. I know what sort of things to listen and look for.

I'll give it a shot in your case...

You aren't worth a shit.

Your ideas are incoherently evil. You speak evil and have evil ideas.

You disrupt any useful discussion of ideas for re-limiting our government and increasing our liberty. Instead, you vilely insult the ideas of Liberty and of America and Americans. 
  
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