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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) 18 States greet workers into new year by causing them to get fired (Read 447 times)
Don_G
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Re: 18 States greet workers into new year by causing them to get fired
Reply #20 - Jan 1st, 2018 at 1:56pm
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burnsred wrote on Jan 1st, 2018 at 1:33pm:
If they were thriving before the minimum wage was raised and then they failed, they were viable until the government rendered them nonviable.  in a case like that, the minimum wage is proven to actually be zero, which is all any law can require an employer to pay people.  So how did those worker benefit by going from $7.25 per hour to $0.00 per hour?


I get your point, and it's a valid one. So now hear mine. I would contend that if a business can't pay at least the minimum wage then it never was a viable business. And I'll go further and say that in many cases, if a business can't pay a decent living wage then it was never a viable business.

Workers can't continue to sacrifice in order to keep unviable businesses alive. Granted, it's getting more difficult for a business to be able to operate with low wage competition from Asia. But what is the solution in the end?

Trump talks a good line but can he deliver? And how can he manipulate the system that exists other than keeping Americans working at lower and lower wages. That's the difficult question that is asked and which always brings the stock answer from the right. Take it off the workers' backs.


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If employers are paying less than the minimum wage, then that tells you how worthless minimum wage laws are. 


There's truth in the fact that employers are defeating minimum wage laws. Do you want to see American workers being paid less than minimum wage? My guess is that nearly all Americans want to see good paying jobs throughout.

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When they are enforced, they do way more harm than good.  If, for example, McDonald's were to be forced to pay the same salary to a new burger-flipping trainee as they pay their HR managers at corporate headquarters, or their computer techs or their mechanics who maintain their fleet of trucks, they would have two choices in how to fund that mandate.


Are they being asked to do that? No they are not!

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  They  could pass that cost on to consumers, pricing their burgers out of the market and resulting in mass layoffs.  The other option is that they would have to forego profits for the foreseeable future and operate at a loss which would offer no incentive whatsoever for them to do the work required to manage such a large operation.


If they had to pay their burger flippers the same as the others you mentioned. But they're not.

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Speaking of large operations, that particular operation - the McDonald's Corporation - packages, delivers, prepares and serves low-cost, good-tasting, highly caloric food to hundreds of millions of poor and working class people without taking a dime from taxpayers.  No government operation comes close to that kind of social responsibility.


That's getting a little off topic but I will just say it's not completely true. Social responsibility is lacking in that it's junk food that encourages obesity.

Actually there are examples of government doing much better and much lower cost by delivering food aid to poor starving people in foreign countries via food drops. 

But let's not go there on this thread. Let's continue on the question of what makes a business viable.

I think Kaz has inadvertently given us a hint of an attitude that doesn't work and proves that his attitude was only trying to support unviable business practices. He's ran 5 businesses and that causes me to think it's very likely that 4 have failed.
  
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Jeff
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Re: 18 States greet workers into new year by causing them to get fired
Reply #21 - Jan 1st, 2018 at 2:05pm
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Don_G wrote on Jan 1st, 2018 at 1:56pm:
I get your point, and it's a valid one. So now hear mine. I would contend that if a business can't pay at least the minimum wage then it never was a viable business.
The point isn't what a business can or can't pay, it's what an individual worker is worth.
If a worker can't make a contribution to a business that's overall worth more than $5.00/ hour, then paying them more than that is charity and a net loss to the business.

It's up to prospective workers to make themselves worth more. Get more education, learn to do something, establish a work record so some employer will be able to say you are reliable and trustworthy and always willing to work...
Then you will be worth more.

  
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Don_G
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Re: 18 States greet workers into new year by causing them to get fired
Reply #22 - Jan 1st, 2018 at 2:18pm
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Jeff wrote on Jan 1st, 2018 at 2:05pm:
The point isn't what a business can or can't pay, it's what an individual worker is worth.


I would say you're right about it being what a worker is worth, but but that's also saying that a workers' worth can't be at least minimum wage. There is a point at which a business becomes unviable and that should ideally be decided by it's ability to pay a decent wage.

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If a worker can't make a contribution to a business that's overall worth more than $5.00/ hour, then paying them more than that is charity and a net loss to the business.


That's entirely true! If a worker can't contribute to a business [b]more[/] than what he is paid then there's no point in employing the worker. It's more than breaking even, it's providing a net profit!

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It's up to prospective workers to make themselves worth more. Get more education, learn to do something, establish a work record so some employer will be able to say you are reliable and trustworthy and always willing to work...
Then you will be worth more.


I think we're all aware of that.

We're also aware that many businesses won't settle with a moderate profit if they can pay workers less and bring in a larger profit.

So we have to hold workers' feet to the fire, as you are suggesting. But we also have to hold businesses feet to the fire and force them to come up with business ideas that can be viable at at least minimum wage.

My business, which I ran successfully until I retired paid wages to a few workers much higher than minimum wage. I paid union wages to qualified electricians and instrument mechanics.

There's no doubt whatsoever that my business wouldn't have been a viable business if I couldn't afford to pay those wages. Now that's just a fact!
  
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Jeff
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Re: 18 States greet workers into new year by causing them to get fired
Reply #23 - Jan 1st, 2018 at 2:24pm
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Don_G wrote on Jan 1st, 2018 at 2:18pm:
I would say you're right about it being what a worker is worth, but but that's also saying that a workers' worth can't be at least minimum wage. There is a point at which a business becomes unviable and that should ideally be decided by it's ability to pay a decent wage.
Businesses go under when they can't pay their bills because they have more money going out than coming in and no one will loan them any money.

That said, there are business who make money while paying very low wages, so they can pay their bills and stay in business.

You really don't know anything do you?

But of course you are semi-correct in that if you can't find anyone to work for what you can afford to pay, you won't have a business either.

Edit: Will you cut my lawn and trim the shrubs for $5.00/hour? If you will, we have a deal. If you won't, we don't.
  
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Don_G
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Re: 18 States greet workers into new year by causing them to get fired
Reply #24 - Jan 1st, 2018 at 2:34pm
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Jeff wrote on Jan 1st, 2018 at 2:24pm:
Businesses go under when they can't pay their bills because they have more money going out than coming in and no one will loan them any money.


One indisputable reason why some businesses fail. Far from the only one.

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That said, there are business who make money while paying very low wages, so they can pay their bills and stay in business.


Yes, and if they are paying less than minimum wage then they are being permitted to do so. Usually illegally but maybe some times legally in your right to work states. You tell me?

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You really don't know anything do you?


There goes the discussion. Most likely because you've run out of answers.

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But of course you are semi-correct in that if you can't find anyone to work for what you can afford to pay, you won't have a business either.


More than just semi, but unless you dispense with your rudeness then I'm finished with you.

In any case, this discussion has served as proof of why discussions go wrong between you and others. All your charges you levelled against me have been shown to be your problem and not mine.

Would you like to try again or has this set the bar for the new year?
  
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Re: 18 States greet workers into new year by causing them to get fired
Reply #25 - Jan 1st, 2018 at 2:48pm
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Don_G wrote on Jan 1st, 2018 at 2:34pm:
More than just semi, but unless you dispense with your rudeness then I'm finished with you.


Does that mean you won't do my yard work for $5.00/hour?

I'm not disappointed, you are probably a lazy slacker who would take 5 times too long to do the work and wouldn't do a good job anyway.
  
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Re: 18 States greet workers into new year by causing them to get fired
Reply #26 - Jan 1st, 2018 at 3:14pm
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Don_G wrote on Jan 1st, 2018 at 1:56pm:
I get your point, and it's a valid one. So now hear mine. I would contend that if a business can't pay at least the minimum wage then it never was a viable business. And I'll go further and say that in many cases, if a business can't pay a decent living wage then it was never a viable business. 


A business or any other organization or organism is not inherently viable or nonviable as a binary choice.  The question is, "is it viable under specified conditions?"  Under our current relatively free economy, McDonald's thrives and provide a myriad of social benefits including low-cost and enjoyable food for the poor and working class, jobs for poor who wish to move up to working class and beyond, entrepreneurial opportunities with far more likelihood of success than would be had by a person opening a mom-and-pop burger stand all while paying billions in taxes to federal, state and local government and while operating a corporate charity called Ronald McDonald House.  It is indeed viable - under current conditions.

Your dream of making such a socially beneficial organization nonviable through increasingly unworkable regulation calls for some serious soul-searching on your part. 



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Workers can't continue to sacrifice in order to keep unviable businesses alive. Granted, it's getting more difficult for a business to be able to operate with low wage competition from Asia. But what is the solution in the end?


Sacrifice is the essence of economics, when economics is defined as the study of how limited resources are used to satisfy unlimited wants.  People sacrifice to go to medical school, to welding school or to raise children.  People sacrifice meals out to pay off credit cards instead of maxing them out.  People sacrifice a winter vacation in Florida for a summer vacation in Australia.  Few people have unlimited resources for all wants. 

When you say that workers "continue to sacrifice to keep unviable businesses alive" what you mean is that it is a sacrifice that the government does not force the businesses at gun point to pay them more than they are already being forced to pay.  By that definition, you could also say that when I enter a bank I sacrifice if I don't rob it, but merely withdraw some of my own hard-earned money.

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There's truth in the fact that employers are defeating minimum wage laws. Do you want to see American workers being paid less than minimum wage? My guess is that nearly all Americans want to see good paying jobs throughout.


Sure, I want to see workers having good paying jobs.  I also know that a free market it the only way to accomplish that.  As we have seen from McDonald's automating their cashiers out of jobs in states in which the minimum wage is nonviable, government intervention cannot accomplish that.

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If they had to pay their burger flippers the same as the others you mentioned. But they're not.


How would I know that?  You have offered absolutely no specifics as to what you think is a "livable wage."  That's the problem with making that argument.  Without specifics, it really amounts to "just keep giving me more until I tell you I'm satisfied with it."


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That's getting a little off topic but I will just say it's not completely true. Social responsibility is lacking in that it's junk food that encourages obesity.


So, in your plan, McDonald's will not only pay its employees far more, but they will alter their fare to make it resemble Michelle Obama's school lunches?  I work in and around a variety of public schools with one thing in common - ESL students who are overwhelmingly low-income.  I can tell you that at least half of the food served under those regulations ends up in the trash (students are required to go through the line and are required to take one entree, one vegetable, one fruit and one milk.  The milk is the only thing consistently consumed but even some of that goes in the dumpster).  Why do you think people will pay for the same kind of food at a fast-food establishment when kids who qualify for free lunches turn can't choke it down?

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Actually there are examples of government doing much better and much lower cost by delivering food aid to poor starving people in foreign countries via food drops.
 

Why in the world would food ever need to be dropped instead of simply trucked in or better yet locally produced?  Answer that question honestly and you will see why government is not the best way to provide for people's nutrition.


  
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Don_G
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Re: 18 States greet workers into new year by causing them to get fired
Reply #27 - Jan 1st, 2018 at 3:43pm
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burnsred wrote on Jan 1st, 2018 at 3:14pm:


A business or any other organization or organism is not inherently viable or nonviable as a binary choice.  The question is, "is it viable under specified conditions?"  Under our current relatively free economy, McDonald's thrives and provide a myriad of social benefits including low-cost and enjoyable food for the poor and working class, jobs for poor who wish to move up to working class and beyond, entrepreneurial opportunities with far more likelihood of success than would be had by a person opening a mom-and-pop burger stand all while paying billions in taxes to federal, state and local government and while operating a corporate charity called Ronald McDonald House.  It is indeed viable - under current conditions.

Your dream of making such a socially beneficial organization nonviable through increasingly unworkable regulation calls for some serious soul-searching on your part. 


The topic is expanding and so we're not going to end it overnight. I'm going to take it to MacD's because you want to promote them as a healthy source of food for the poor.

It's not healthy and it's not well priced either. It's a poor choice because it's junk food and not a good buy for their money.

Good food can be purchased for much less. Probably a tenth of the cost of a hamburger. Let's start with the cost of that much beef. What would you say, about 50 cents worth. And how much for the entire hamburger that is not much more than a wonder bread sort of bun, another 50 cents? So a buck for the whole hamburger would be roughly it's worth?

And they want what, say $5 or $6 for it? So how much carrots, potatoes, onions, etc. could they buy for $6? Get the point burnsred?

Are we finished with Macdonald's yet? 




Sacrifice is the essence of economics, when economics is defined as the study of how limited resources are used to satisfy unlimited wants.  People sacrifice to go to medical school, to welding school or to raise children.  People sacrifice meals out to pay off credit cards instead of maxing them out.  People sacrifice a winter vacation in Florida for a summer vacation in Australia.  Few people have unlimited resources for all wants. [/quote]

Sometimes true but mostly they make bad choices such as macdonald's. 

When you say that workers "continue to sacrifice to keep unviable businesses alive" what you mean is that it is a sacrifice that the government does not force the businesses at gun point to pay them more than they are already being forced to pay.  By that definition, you could also say that when I enter a bank I sacrifice if I don't rob it, but merely withdraw some of my own hard-earned money. [/quote]

Gun point is not part of it. Government has interfered in the free market and that is in enabling a business to pay less than minimum wage. That's what right to work laws are for.


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Sure, I want to see workers having good paying jobs.  I also know that a free market it the only way to accomplish that.  As we have seen from McDonald's automating their cashiers out of jobs in states in which the minimum wage is nonviable, government intervention cannot accomplish that.


We would have to have a close look at a macdonald's restaurant to see if it would be viable if it paid minimum wage.

If we're really interested in getting to the bottom of this question we would do that wouldn't we. But that would entail us trying to determine how much profit a owner should be earning wouldn't it. Should we try to do that or is that not something we are entitled to know?

I think I can confidently say that all but a very small % of macd's are making a profit. Could it be that they could still make a decent profit if they had to pay minimum? I think so and so do you?



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How would I know that?  You have offered absolutely no specifics as to what you think is a "livable wage."  That's the problem with making that argument.  Without specifics, it really amounts to "just keep giving me more until I tell you I'm satisfied with it."


Government in it's wisdom has decided what minimum wage should be.



So, in your plan, McDonald's will not only pay its employees far more, but they will alter their fare to make it resemble Michelle Obama's school lunches?  I work in and around a variety of public schools with one thing in common - ESL students who are overwhelmingly low-income.  I can tell you that at least half of the food served under those regulations ends up in the trash (students are required to go through the line and are required to take one entree, one vegetable, one fruit and one milk.  The milk is the only thing consistently consumed but even some of that goes in the dumpster).  Why do you think people will pay for the same kind of food at a fast-food establishment when kids who qualify for free lunches turn can't choke it down? [/quote]

Now the discussion has been expanded just too much. But in general bad government hasn't encouraged good choices. In some countries people don't prefer junk food. And they don't choke down good nutritious foods. But then that's just wandering off to socially responsible government again.

 

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Why in the world would food ever need to be dropped instead of simply trucked in or better yet locally produced?  Answer that question honestly and you will see why government is not the best way to provide for people's nutrition.


con't.
  
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Re: 18 States greet workers into new year by causing them to get fired
Reply #28 - Jan 1st, 2018 at 3:46pm
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Dropping it is likely more cost efficient than trucking.

Land where starving people live is not as productive as land where first world people live, in general.

There may be other reasons you might want to suggest.

Don't ask questions you know the answer to or you know how I will answer. You've expanded the topic too much. Pick something out of what you want to talk about and put it to me.

We're not establishing one way or another anything to do with minimum wage and viable business.
  
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Re: 18 States greet workers into new year by causing them to get fired
Reply #29 - Jan 1st, 2018 at 4:16pm
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Don_G wrote on Jan 1st, 2018 at 3:46pm:
Dropping it is likely more cost efficient than trucking.

Land where starving people live is not as productive as land where first world people live, in general.


Right, so why do they live there is the natural question, correct?

Look for a thread to explain this.



  
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