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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) 18 States greet workers into new year by causing them to get fired (Read 744 times)
Sicklers Dink
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Re: 18 States greet workers into new year by causing them to get fired
Reply #30 - Jan 1st, 2018 at 4:19pm
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SnarkySack wrote on Jan 1st, 2018 at 4:16pm:
Right, so why do they live there is the natural question, correct?

Look for a thread to explain this.



There may be other reasons you might want to suggest.

Don't ask questions you know the answer to or you know how I will answer. You've expanded the topic too much. Pick something out of what you want to talk about and put it to me.

We're not establishing one way or another anything to do with minimum wage and viable business.

[/quote]

Choose the topic you want to pursue in detail and let me know.

For now suffice to say there are 7 billion people in the world and they can't all live in the best places.
  
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SnarkySack
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Re: 18 States greet workers into new year by causing them to get fired
Reply #31 - Jan 1st, 2018 at 4:37pm
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Sicklers Dink wrote on Jan 1st, 2018 at 3:43pm:
The topic is expanding and so we're not going to end it overnight. I'm going to take it to MacD's because you want to promote them as a healthy source of food for the poor.


I took it to McDonald's because the topic is raising the mandated minimum wage and McD's is one of the largest employers of minimum wage workers.  Maybe the largest, I haven't looked it up.

Quote:
It's not healthy and it's not well priced either. It's a poor choice because it's junk food and not a good buy for their money.

Good food can be purchased for much less. Probably a tenth of the cost of a hamburger. Let's start with the cost of that much beef. What would you say, about 50 cents worth. And how much for the entire hamburger that is not much more than a wonder bread sort of bun, another 50 cents? So a buck for the whole hamburger would be roughly it's worth?

And they want what, say $5 or $6 for it? So how much carrots, potatoes, onions, etc. could they buy for $6? Get the point burnsred?

Are we finished with Macdonald's yet? 


McDonald's is healthy for truly poor people because it is highly caloric and will prevent them from starving.  in the U.S., we don't have that kind of poor people, we have people who prefer welfare than allows them to eat at McDonald's to working a low-skilled and therefore low-wage at McDonald's.  Praise Allah, that is a minority of people and McD's has little trouble finding willing workers.

Yes, I am a huge advocate of serving healthy food to welfare dolees instead of giving them money and debit cards which which to buy their own food.  If they find it less enjoyable than the McRib, that might incentivize them to find work with which to get off the dole.  An available job is as close as the McRib.  Exactly as close. 

Burnsred wrote:


Quote:
Sacrifice is the essence of economics, when economics is defined as the study of how limited resources are used to satisfy unlimited wants.  People sacrifice to go to medical school, to welding school or to raise children.  People sacrifice meals out to pay off credit cards instead of maxing them out.  People sacrifice a winter vacation in Florida for a summer vacation in Australia.  Few people have unlimited resources for all wants.


Quote:
Sometimes true but mostly they make bad choices such as macdonald's. 
So you agree that dolees should not be allowed to spend tax dollars on fast food?


Quote:
Gun point is not part of it. Government has interfered in the free market and that is in enabling a business to pay less than minimum wage. That's what right to work laws are for.


Of course gunpoint is the essence of government regulation of businesses.  Regulations are no suggestions, they are mandates backed up the government's monopoly on the legitimate use of force.  Guns are the key to that force. 

Why do businesses comply with regulations, if not out of fear that they will be punished by men who control guns?  Fear of being ridiculed on NPR?




I'll have to answer the rest later.  You messed up in quoting so I'm having to fix that as I go which is slowing down my though processes.

  

I used to be burnsred . . .
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Jeff
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Re: 18 States greet workers into new year by causing them to get fired
Reply #32 - Jan 1st, 2018 at 5:18pm
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SnarkySack wrote on Jan 1st, 2018 at 3:14pm:


A business or any other organization or organism is not inherently viable or nonviable as a binary choice.  The question is, "is it viable under specified conditions?"  Under our current relatively free economy, McDonald's thrives and provide a myriad of social benefits including low-cost and enjoyable food for the poor and working class, jobs for poor who wish to move up to working class and beyond, entrepreneurial opportunities with far more likelihood of success than would be had by a person opening a mom-and-pop burger stand all while paying billions in taxes to federal, state and local government and while operating a corporate charity called Ronald McDonald House.  It is indeed viable - under current conditions.

Your dream of making such a socially beneficial organization nonviable through increasingly unworkable regulation calls for some serious soul-searching on your part. 




Sacrifice is the essence of economics, when economics is defined as the study of how limited resources are used to satisfy unlimited wants.  People sacrifice to go to medical school, to welding school or to raise children.  People sacrifice meals out to pay off credit cards instead of maxing them out.  People sacrifice a winter vacation in Florida for a summer vacation in Australia.  Few people have unlimited resources for all wants. 

When you say that workers "continue to sacrifice to keep unviable businesses alive" what you mean is that it is a sacrifice that the government does not force the businesses at gun point to pay them more than they are already being forced to pay.  By that definition, you could also say that when I enter a bank I sacrifice if I don't rob it, but merely withdraw some of my own hard-earned money.


Sure, I want to see workers having good paying jobs.  I also know that a free market it the only way to accomplish that.  As we have seen from McDonald's automating their cashiers out of jobs in states in which the minimum wage is nonviable, government intervention cannot accomplish that.


How would I know that?  You have offered absolutely no specifics as to what you think is a "livable wage."  That's the problem with making that argument.  Without specifics, it really amounts to "just keep giving me more until I tell you I'm satisfied with it."



So, in your plan, McDonald's will not only pay its employees far more, but they will alter their fare to make it resemble Michelle Obama's school lunches?  I work in and around a variety of public schools with one thing in common - ESL students who are overwhelmingly low-income.  I can tell you that at least half of the food served under those regulations ends up in the trash (students are required to go through the line and are required to take one entree, one vegetable, one fruit and one milk.  The milk is the only thing consistently consumed but even some of that goes in the dumpster).  Why do you think people will pay for the same kind of food at a fast-food establishment when kids who qualify for free lunches turn can't choke it down?

 

Why in the world would food ever need to be dropped instead of simply trucked in or better yet locally produced?  Answer that question honestly and you will see why government is not the best way to provide for people's nutrition.


This is the best thing I've read on this forum, probably ever.
  
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Sicklers Dink
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Re: 18 States greet workers into new year by causing them to get fired
Reply #33 - Jan 1st, 2018 at 7:10pm
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SnarkySack wrote on Jan 1st, 2018 at 4:37pm:
I took it to McDonald's because the topic is raising the mandated minimum wage and McD's is one of the largest employers of minimum wage workers.  Maybe the largest, I haven't looked it up.



McDonald's is healthy for truly poor people because it is highly caloric and will prevent them from starving.  in the U.S., we don't have that kind of poor people, we have people who prefer welfare than allows them to eat at McDonald's to working a low-skilled and therefore low-wage at McDonald's.  Praise Allah, that is a minority of people and McD's has little trouble finding willing workers.


If preventing people from starving is your goal then you would be right. Need you be told that some countries strive for higher ideals?

And the other point worth mentioning from what you've said is that we're all aware of the problems in your country and the sort of people you are dealing with. My point is to inform you that people in other modern first worl countries are quite different and the same problems aren't needing to be dealt with.

Quote:
Yes, I am a huge advocate of serving healthy food to welfare dolees instead of giving them money and debit cards which which to buy their own food.  If they find it less enjoyable than the McRib, that might incentivize them to find work with which to get off the dole.  An available job is as close as the McRib.  Exactly as close. 

Burnsred wrote:


As is your usual pattern, you don't understand that the incentive has to come first, the the change can and will happen. You're bright enough to understand what that means but likely not bright enough to accept it. Here's where we could return to the Norway penal system.


Quote:
So you agree that dolees should not be allowed to spend tax dollars on fast food?


the mistake was already made when they were given the tax dollars. It's too late to try to tell them what they can spend it on. In your country they will likely spend it on booze and street drugs. I can only assume you want to keep that status quo if you don't want to hear ideas on how it can be fixed. You're roughly as receptive to good ideas as you were to Norway's prison system. Not in the least!





Quote:
Why do businesses comply with regulations, if not out of fear that they will be punished by men who control guns?  Fear of being ridiculed on NPR?


If you asked the question for my country I could give you some answers. For your country, I don't know why people need to be force by guns.




Quote:
I'll have to answer the rest later.  You messed up in quoting so I'm having to fix that as I go which is slowing down my though processes.



Don't put too much effort into asking questions I won't answer. My time is limited and that's why I asked you to concentrate on one topic. However, I will do my best.

Frankly, I'm pleased that you have taken an interest in my answers. I also value your feedback as long as you stay polite and on track to progressing in our mutual understanding.
  
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SnarkySack
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Re: 18 States greet workers into new year by causing them to get fired
Reply #34 - Jan 1st, 2018 at 7:26pm
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Sicklers Dink wrote on Jan 1st, 2018 at 7:10pm:
As is your usual pattern, you don't understand that the incentive has to come first, the the change can and will happen. You're bright enough to understand what that means but likely not bright enough to accept it. Here's where we could return to the Norway penal system.



Which I absolutely love as you know.  Keeping violent thugs locked up indefinitely until a judge rules them rehabilitated is an awesome idea that I wish the U.S. would emulate.

As far as government mandated ten dollars per hour incentivizing work that is worth that much, I don't see how.  By mandating it, we are only telling workers that ten bucks an hour is an entitlement so why would they put forth any other effort except clocking in and clocking out?


Quote:
the mistake was already made when they were given the tax dollars. It's too late to try to tell them what they can spend it on. In your country they will likely spend it on booze and street drugs. I can only assume you want to keep that status quo if you don't want to hear ideas on how it can be fixed. You're roughly as receptive to good ideas as you were to Norway's prison system. Not in the least!


We can fix that mistake by cutting off the flow of tax dollars.  It's not like we gave them a huge pot of money.  Our lefties know that money has to be doled out in weekly or monthly increments to keep people dependent.


  

I used to be burnsred . . .
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Re: 18 States greet workers into new year by causing them to get fired
Reply #35 - Jan 1st, 2018 at 7:29pm
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Jeff wrote on Jan 1st, 2018 at 5:18pm:
This is the best thing I've read on this forum, probably ever.



Thank you, Jeff!

Happy New Year!
  

I used to be burnsred . . .
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Jeff
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Re: 18 States greet workers into new year by causing them to get fired
Reply #36 - Jan 2nd, 2018 at 7:54am
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SnarkySack wrote on Jan 1st, 2018 at 7:29pm:
Thank you, Jeff!

Happy New Year!

The same to you. It looks like it will be interesting.
  
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Sicklers Dink
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Re: 18 States greet workers into new year by causing them to get fired
Reply #37 - Jan 2nd, 2018 at 12:28pm
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SnarkySack wrote on Jan 1st, 2018 at 7:26pm:
Which I absolutely love as you know.  Keeping violent thugs locked up indefinitely until a judge rules them rehabilitated is an awesome idea that I wish the U.S. would emulate.

As far as government mandated ten dollars per hour incentivizing work that is worth that much, I don't see how.  By mandating it, we are only telling workers that ten bucks an hour is an entitlement so why would they put forth any other effort except clocking in and clocking out?



We can fix that mistake by cutting off the flow of tax dollars.  It's not like we gave them a huge pot of money.  Our lefties know that money has to be doled out in weekly or monthly increments to keep people dependent.




Stop right there. You say: We can fix........................

Who is we? No, you can't fix anything. You're powerless to 'fix' anything with your libertarian methods. Other methods must be employed in order to 'fix' something.

That's what I'll be telling you and Jeff about in the new year. And yes, it's going to be interesting.
  
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Jeff
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Re: 18 States greet workers into new year by causing them to get fired
Reply #38 - Jan 2nd, 2018 at 5:57pm
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Sicklers Dink wrote on Jan 2nd, 2018 at 12:28pm:
Who is we?
Us dumbhead. Not you, but us. That's who we are. As if you didn't know you clever child.
  
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SnarkySack
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Re: 18 States greet workers into new year by causing them to get fired
Reply #39 - Jan 2nd, 2018 at 8:13pm
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Sicklers Dink wrote on Jan 2nd, 2018 at 12:28pm:
Stop right there. You say: We can fix........................

Who is we? No, you can't fix anything. You're powerless to 'fix' anything with your libertarian methods. Other methods must be employed in order to 'fix' something.



Yet, you are so frightened that libertarians might take you out of your comfort zone that you spend hours each day whining about it on a libertarian forum.

  

I used to be burnsred . . .
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