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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) UN Secretary-General Puts World on Red Alert. (Read 392 times)
Jeff
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Re: UN Secretary-General Puts World on Red Alert.
Reply #20 - Jan 5th, 2018 at 7:46am
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The Opposition wrote on Jan 4th, 2018 at 10:19pm:
Is there anything wrong with Israel being a Jewish state?
What do you see wrong with it, specifically?
  
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Re: UN Secretary-General Puts World on Red Alert.
Reply #21 - Jan 5th, 2018 at 7:52am
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burnsred wrote on Jan 4th, 2018 at 10:58pm:
It is horribly wrong or Israel to be a Jewish state.
What specifically do you see wrong with it? What is it that you think makes Israel a "Jewish State"? Do you think the laws of Israel make Judaism a State Religion?
  
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Re: UN Secretary-General Puts World on Red Alert.
Reply #22 - Jan 5th, 2018 at 9:26am
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Jeff wrote on Jan 5th, 2018 at 7:52am:
What specifically do you see wrong with it?
It treats people differently based on their religion and/or "race." 

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What is it that you think makes Israel a "Jewish State"? Do you think the laws of Israel make Judaism a State Religion?


I really did not think it was a question.  Is Israel avoiding those terms for the sake of politics?  Is it claiming to be a secular democracy that welcomes people of all religions?  I hope they are not making that claim given that their "law of return" means that a Jewish guy living in Florida whose ancestors immigrated to New York from Russia more than a hundred years earlier is allowed to move to Israel and instantly become a citizen.

The history of Israel is that "the world" carved out a part of the middle east specifically for Jews to have a safe haven from persecution.  Gypsies, gays, political dissidents and other victims of the mass slaughter in Germany and the Soviet Union were given no such haven.

Israel is a tough issue for libertarians who want the U.S. to pull out of foreign entanglements.  I don't know if they could survive on their own no matter how much time we gave them to prepare.  Israel is no libertarian state, but its people are much more free than they would be under the Caliphate that would wipe them out if the U.S. suddenly withdraws its protection. 


  
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Re: UN Secretary-General Puts World on Red Alert.
Reply #23 - Jan 5th, 2018 at 9:56am
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burnsred wrote on Jan 5th, 2018 at 9:26am:
It treats people differently based on their religion and/or "race." 


I really did not think it was a question.  Is Israel avoiding those terms for the sake of politics?  Is it claiming to be a secular democracy that welcomes people of all religions?  I hope they are not making that claim given that their "law of return" means that a Jewish guy living in Florida whose ancestors immigrated to New York from Russia more than a hundred years earlier is allowed to move to Israel and instantly become a citizen.

The history of Israel is that "the world" carved out a part of the middle east specifically for Jews to have a safe haven from persecution.  Gypsies, gays, political dissidents and other victims of the mass slaughter in Germany and the Soviet Union were given no such haven.

Israel is a tough issue for libertarians who want the U.S. to pull out of foreign entanglements.  I don't know if they could survive on their own no matter how much time we gave them to prepare.  Israel is no libertarian state, but its people are much more free than they would be under the Caliphate that would wipe them out if the U.S. suddenly withdraws its protection. 


The law of return creates a refuge for Jews. In that sense, Israel treats people differently based on their religion. Israel is not an automatic refuge for people of other religions.

You can fault them for that if you want, but I hope you see why they thought (and think) there is a need for such a place, and the impossibility of making a small nation with few natural resources a refuge for everyone who might be suffering oppression or even extermination.


  
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Re: UN Secretary-General Puts World on Red Alert.
Reply #24 - Jan 5th, 2018 at 10:36am
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Jeff wrote on Jan 5th, 2018 at 9:56am:
The law of return creates a refuge for Jews. In that sense, Israel treats people differently based on their religion. Israel is not an automatic refuge for people of other religions.

You can fault them for that if you want, but I hope you see why they thought (and think) there is a need for such a place, and the impossibility of making a small nation with few natural resources a refuge for everyone who might be suffering oppression or even extermination.




Sure, there is an upside to the racism inherent in a Jewish state. Jews are certainly a despised minority in many parts of the world.  Even where the anti-Jewish propaganda isn't as overt as it once was, attacks on "capitalists" are often thinly veiled uses of the same old Jewish stereotypes.  I understand why Jews want to protect Jews and aren't so concerned about Gypsies or middle-eastern Christians or whoever.   

As with many anti-freedom laws and policies, there is an upside to keeping them and a downside to getting rid of them.  As libertarians, we have decided to put freedom ahead of other concerns.  In Israel, preservation of a Jewish state is the primary concern, so of course freedom will suffer.

It's the same in the U.S.  The entire political debate among libs/cons, Rep/Dems is not about whether we should sacrifice freedom for safety but how and in which cases should we do that.

  
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Re: UN Secretary-General Puts World on Red Alert.
Reply #25 - Jan 5th, 2018 at 12:19pm
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burnsred wrote on Jan 5th, 2018 at 10:36am:
Sure, there is an upside to the racism inherent in a Jewish state. Jews are certainly a despised minority in many parts of the world.  Even where the anti-Jewish propaganda isn't as overt as it once was, attacks on "capitalists" are often thinly veiled uses of the same old Jewish stereotypes.  I understand why Jews want to protect Jews and aren't so concerned about Gypsies or middle-eastern Christians or whoever. 


You make a good point about Jews being despised in many parts of the world. But this is less so now than it was before WW2 when Jews were despised in more countries than now.

Personally, I don't see your point on Jews still wanting to discriiminate against others. It's led to the extreme which is an apartheid regime and that will eventually be their undoing. This is the 21st. century!  

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As with many anti-freedom laws and policies, there is an upside to keeping them and a downside to getting rid of them.  As libertarians, we have decided to put freedom ahead of other concerns.  In Israel, preservation of a Jewish state is the primary concern, so of course freedom will suffer.


Real libertarians don't support apartheid and don't make excuses for it!

Quote:
It's the same in the U.S.  The entire political debate among libs/cons, Rep/Dems is not about whether we should sacrifice freedom for safety but how and in which cases should we do that.



Necessity for safety will always win out over politics. Libertarians would be wise to take the right side of the debate and sacrifice some freedoms. The decisions have already been made so being on the winning side would be good for the libertarian cause.

Don't fight progress. Freedoms can be regained when the country stops making enemies in foreign lands.
  
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Re: UN Secretary-General Puts World on Red Alert.
Reply #26 - Jan 5th, 2018 at 3:29pm
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Jeff wrote on Jan 5th, 2018 at 7:46am:
What do you see wrong with it, specifically?


Nothing. I just want your confirmation that it's not wrong because if there was anything wrong with it, I wouldn't see it.

Jeff wrote on Jan 5th, 2018 at 9:56am:
You can fault them for that if you want, but I hope you see why they thought (and think) there is a need for such a place, and the impossibility of making a small nation with few natural resources a refuge for everyone who might be suffering oppression or even extermination.


I do see why there would be such a need.

I understand that oppressed minorities often need special treatment, but this is only because I've been told. I just want it clarified in a logical way why a white state is horribly wrong and a Jewish state is fine and dandy.

I am not arguing that this is not true. I can see from the way people act that it is true. I'm not trying to argue that it's not. I feel like I get unfairly abused for arguing when I'm just trying to understand. I want it clarified so I can understand. If I give a counterexample it's to force you to explain in more depth.
  

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Re: UN Secretary-General Puts World on Red Alert.
Reply #27 - Jan 5th, 2018 at 4:40pm
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burnsred wrote on Jan 5th, 2018 at 10:36am:
Sure, there is an upside to the racism inherent in a Jewish state.
That's an ignorant lie. Jews of any "race" are allowed to live in Israel, even Semitics.
  
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Re: UN Secretary-General Puts World on Red Alert.
Reply #28 - Jan 5th, 2018 at 11:07pm
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Jeff wrote on Jan 5th, 2018 at 4:40pm:
That's an ignorant lie. Jews of any "race" are allowed to live in Israel, even Semitics.


See how you just get mad and call people ignorant when people are trying to understand? It's typical of your brand of PCism.

What you're not getting is that everyone wants to be as morally advanced as you are, and as Israel is. The namecalling is not helping anyone understand.

Everyone would accept the reason if they understood.
  

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Re: UN Secretary-General Puts World on Red Alert.
Reply #29 - Jan 5th, 2018 at 11:16pm
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Jeff wrote on Jan 5th, 2018 at 4:40pm:
That's an ignorant lie. Jews of any "race" are allowed to live in Israel, even Semitics.


So Hitler was not a racist because he hated Jews of all races?  Come on, Jeff, you're better than that.  Call the way the Israelis treat non-Jews and Jews who are not "Jewish enough" whatever you want.  It is religious discrimination and no matter what benefits it provides, it violates one of the key principles of libertarianism which is to judge individuals by their merit rather than by their demographic grouping.

I'm not harshly criticizing Israel for protecting Jews.  I understand the historical reasons behind it.  My issue is with an unending commitment of American lives and treasure to defend it.   The political reality is that American Jews, and especially American conservative Christians, will want the U.S. to support Israel at all costs because God wills it.  Under my idea that we cut off support for nations in reverse order of how much gratitude they show for our support means that Israel will the be last nation left swinging in the breeze.  But if we are libertarian, we must eventually let them stand or fall on their own.


  
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