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Jeff
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Re: Kim Could Drive Wedge Between US and North Korea
Reply #10 - Jan 3rd, 2018 at 4:02pm
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SnarkySack wrote on Jan 3rd, 2018 at 10:45am:
Maybe or maybe not.  They may allow South Korea to maintain some of its economic freedom as they did Hong Kong.  They might even encourage/strongly encourage North Korea to do the same.  Eventually, they would want a United Korea to be very similar to China, I guess...
"They"?

Who are you talking about? South Koreans aren't interested in having the Chinese Communists be their government and they certainly don't want Young Kim's mental aberration to rule over them.

Wait, I see, you've already ceded South Korea to the Chinese "sphere of influence". South Koreans will probably fight to prevent that.
  
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SnarkySack
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Re: Kim Could Drive Wedge Between US and North Korea
Reply #11 - Jan 3rd, 2018 at 4:17pm
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Jeff wrote on Jan 3rd, 2018 at 4:02pm:
"They"?

Who are you talking about?


China.  You asked whether China would be willing to allow North and South Korea unite under a system much like South Korea's semi-free nation. 

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South Koreans aren't interested in having the Chinese Communists be their government and they certainly don't want Young Kim's mental aberration to rule over them.


No, of course they don't want that.  The question is are we willing to keep spending American dollars and American lives to give South Korea what they want.

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Wait, I see, you've already ceded South Korea to the Chinese "sphere of influence". South Koreans will probably fight to prevent that.


Good!  We as libertarians should cheer them on.  But nothing else.

I haven't "ceded" South Korea to China.  Your question assumed that the Chinese would have say in what kind of nation a united Korea would be or whether Korea would unite at all.  My answer was under the same assumption for the sake of argument.  I have no idea whether China would take aggressive action against South Korea, North Korea or a hypothetical reunited Korea absent the current American occupation.   I'm willing to risk finding out.  If you are not, then don't be surprised that the federal government "needs" half your paycheck to keep up with the spending you want it to do.

  

I used to be burnsred . . .
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Jeff
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Re: Kim Could Drive Wedge Between US and North Korea
Reply #12 - Jan 3rd, 2018 at 4:25pm
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SnarkySack wrote on Jan 3rd, 2018 at 4:17pm:
The question is are we willing to keep spending American dollars and American lives to give South Korea what they want.
You're putting it upside down.

It's all about what China wants and South Korea doesn't want.

South Koreans don't want to be ruled by the Chinese Communists. To accomplish that, all they have to do is be ready to defend themselves.

China wants to rule over a united Korea. To accomplish that will almost certainly require that they start a war with South Korea.

Which sounds like a better idea?

Would you call one of these two ideas evil and one good?

Which and why?
  
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Sicklers Dink
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Re: Kim Could Drive Wedge Between US and North Korea
Reply #13 - Jan 3rd, 2018 at 6:36pm
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Jeff wrote on Jan 3rd, 2018 at 4:25pm:
You're putting it upside down.

It's all about what China wants and South Korea doesn't want.

South Koreans don't want to be ruled by the Chinese Communists. To accomplish that, all they have to do is be ready to defend themselves.

China wants to rule over a united Korea. To accomplish that will almost certainly require that they start a war with South Korea.

Which sounds like a better idea?

Would you call one of these two ideas evil and one good?

Which and why?


I think it's going to be more like China deciding to destroy S.K.'s economy and then offered them a part in the world's strongest economy.

Countries are coerced or forced into accepting capitalism in favour of communism. Except  Cuba where the US failed.

The reverse can start to happen when China holds the biggest hammer.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Kim Could Drive Wedge Between US and North Korea
Reply #14 - Jan 3rd, 2018 at 6:51pm
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Sicklers Dink wrote on Jan 3rd, 2018 at 6:36pm:
I think it's going to be more like China deciding to destroy S.K.'s economy and then offered them a part in the world's strongest economy.


A more correct statement would be conquer and plunder. China will help Young Kim do it.
  
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SnarkySack
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Re: Kim Could Drive Wedge Between US and North Korea
Reply #15 - Jan 3rd, 2018 at 7:04pm
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Jeff wrote on Jan 3rd, 2018 at 4:25pm:
You're putting it upside down.

It's all about what China wants and South Korea doesn't want.

South Koreans don't want to be ruled by the Chinese Communists. To accomplish that, all they have to do is be ready to defend themselves.

China wants to rule over a united Korea. To accomplish that will almost certainly require that they start a war with South Korea.

Which sounds like a better idea?

Would you call one of these two ideas evil and one good?

Which and why?


I would call an independent and semi-free South Korea  better than a South Korea dominated by China and far better than a South Korea dominated by the current North Korean government.

I'm guessing the South Korean people will try their hardest to resist any attempt by China or North Korea to rob them of their freedom. 

But, as an American, that's not my call.  My call is to call for the independence, meaning the self-rule and the self-dependency, of South Korea.  This should be accomplished through a gradual but definite reduction in U.S. protection of that nation.
 
  

I used to be burnsred . . .
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SnarkySack
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Re: Kim Could Drive Wedge Between US and North Korea
Reply #16 - Jan 3rd, 2018 at 7:09pm
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Sicklers Dink wrote on Jan 3rd, 2018 at 6:36pm:
I think it's going to be more like China deciding to destroy S.K.'s economy and then offered them a part in the world's strongest economy.

Countries are coerced or forced into accepting capitalism in favour of communism. Except  Cuba where the US failed.

The reverse can start to happen when China holds the biggest hammer.


And sickle, eh, comrade?  Wink, wink, nudge, nudge . . .

Just out of curiosity, how do you envision China ruining SK's economy?

  

I used to be burnsred . . .
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Jeff
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Re: Kim Could Drive Wedge Between US and North Korea
Reply #17 - Jan 3rd, 2018 at 7:22pm
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SnarkySack wrote on Jan 3rd, 2018 at 7:04pm:
My call is to call for the independence, meaning the self-rule and the self-dependency, of South Korea.  This should be accomplished through a gradual but definite reduction in U.S. protection of that nation.
 
That's what China and Young Kim want. The South Koreans want to think we will help them keep their independence, and we have treaties with them saying we will. We could break those treaties, which would tell everyone else our treaties were no good and we would immediately lose all our allies.

Allies aren't much good to us really, but being the only free country in the world wouldn't be good.

All in all, I think we should try it. Just defend ourselves.
  
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SnarkySack
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Re: Kim Could Drive Wedge Between US and North Korea
Reply #18 - Jan 3rd, 2018 at 7:36pm
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Jeff wrote on Jan 3rd, 2018 at 7:22pm:
That's what China and Young Kim want. The South Koreans want to think we will help them keep their independence, and we have treaties with them saying we will. We could break those treaties, which would tell everyone else our treaties were no good and we would immediately lose all our allies.


Good point, but . . . in the treaty itself, the text reads in part:

ARTICLE VI

This Treaty shall remain in force indefinitely. Either Party may terminate it one year after notice has been given to the other Party.


One year is far shorter than I would envision us taking to free SK from dependency status.  I'd say given them the one year's notice immediately but at the end of that year start a gradual nine year drawdown of military occupation. 
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Allies aren't much good to us really, but being the only free country in the world wouldn't be good.


Yes, that is a good point.  Our southern neighbor is ripe for some kind of communist revolution agitated from the outside and Allah knows our northern neighbor wouldn't put up much of a fight against an invading totalitarian force from either China, Russia or a future Caliphate. 

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All in all, I think we should try it. Just defend ourselves.


Yes, but I need to give more thought to the issue of being the only free nation on the planet.

  

I used to be burnsred . . .
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Sicklers Dink
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Re: Kim Could Drive Wedge Between US and North Korea
Reply #19 - Jan 3rd, 2018 at 11:34pm
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SnarkySack wrote on Jan 3rd, 2018 at 7:04pm:
I would call an independent and semi-free South Korea  better than a South Korea dominated by China and far better than a South Korea dominated by the current North Korean government.

I'm guessing the South Korean people will try their hardest to resist any attempt by China or North Korea to rob them of their freedom. 

But, as an American, that's not my call.  My call is to call for the independence, meaning the self-rule and the self-dependency, of South Korea.  This should be accomplished through a gradual but definite reduction in U.S. protection of that nation.
 
Your guess on what the South Korean people would prefer is wrong. Watch the news more and you will learn somethinig more than what you wish will be.

The title contained a typo that you picked up on. There's serious talk of the Korean people's priority being unification and the chances of China being able to use that is indeed becoming reality. That means that excluding the US could actually begin to happen sooner than I've predicted.

There's no use me trying to explain issues to you if you can't rise above what you hope will be, but rather start to look at rational conclusions on  what China will cause to be.
  
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