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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Most Libertarians Vote For UniParty Candidates (A Wasted Vote) (Read 624 times)
Billie
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Re: Most Libertarians Vote For UniParty Candidates (A Wasted Vote)
Reply #30 - Jan 9th, 2018 at 10:23am
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SnarkySack wrote on Jan 9th, 2018 at 10:01am:
Thank you for asking, Don!

I agree with a test as possible part of the qualifications for voting.  Weeding out the bottom 35% of the voters would be a good first step, to be followed of course by weeding out those who thrive on dependency (there would be a lot of overlap, of course).

Honestly, if we did those two things, I would have no trouble letting ex-felons and recent immigrants vote.  Because they would only be the ex-felons and immigrants who have the intellectual ability to make a good choice and who will not be choosing the candidates who promise the most free stuff. 

I would want to use the standard IQ tests that have been valid and reliable for decades and weren't designed with any political aim in mind.  Giving a civics test sounds like a good idea.  But as other here have mentioned, it would be too easy to slant the questions and required answers to one political ideology or another.

Weeding out the bottom 35% would be as easy as requiring people to pass a high school equivalency test, but many of those non-high school graduates are self supporting productive people who should be allowed to vote.
  
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Don_G
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Re: Most Libertarians Vote For UniParty Candidates (A Wasted Vote)
Reply #31 - Jan 9th, 2018 at 12:11pm
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SnarkySack wrote on Jan 9th, 2018 at 10:01am:
Thank you for asking, Don!

I agree with a test as possible part of the qualifications for voting.  Weeding out the bottom 35% of the voters would be a good first step, to be followed of course by weeding out those who thrive on dependency (there would be a lot of overlap, of course).

Honestly, if we did those two things, I would have no trouble letting ex-felons and recent immigrants vote.  Because they would only be the ex-felons and immigrants who have the intellectual ability to make a good choice and who will not be choosing the candidates who promise the most free stuff. 

I would want to use the standard IQ tests that have been valid and reliable for decades and weren't designed with any political aim in mind.  Giving a civics test sounds like a good idea.  But as other here have mentioned, it would be too easy to slant the questions and required answers to one political ideology or another.


The idea was to sort out the people as for their intelligence and I think that would be easy to do with an abbreviated IQ test. I would only say that the 90 level might be too high. And I also think that IQ set at 90 could disqualify a lot of politically astute people.

I think the idea of disqualifying voters already has some legs and could be encouraged by Trump but it may require a new approach to what freedom means. Maybe a new constitution too, but that's likely a good idea.

Examples of other countries that have curtailed the people's right to vote could be looked at as examples on how to do it right.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Most Libertarians Vote For UniParty Candidates (A Wasted Vote)
Reply #32 - Jan 9th, 2018 at 3:20pm
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Billie wrote on Jan 9th, 2018 at 10:23am:
Weeding out the bottom 35% would be as easy as requiring people to pass a high school equivalency test, but many of those non-high school graduates are self supporting productive people who should be allowed to vote.


You've hit on something here. If anything, contributing is what gives you a legit share in how government is run.

If anything.

I think everyone subject to a government has a share, otherwise it's not consent of the governed. But if it's going to be done by anything, do it by this.

Land of Freedom once said that only landowners should be allowed to vote, but in that case only landowners should pay taxes.
  

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Billie
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Re: Most Libertarians Vote For UniParty Candidates (A Wasted Vote)
Reply #33 - Jan 9th, 2018 at 6:37pm
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The Opposition wrote on Jan 9th, 2018 at 3:20pm:
I think everyone subject to a government has a share, otherwise it's not consent of the governed.
Everyone has an interest, even non-voters.

I have no idea what you mean by a "share".

I don't want to return to a landed aristocracy. Land ownership isn't necessarily a sign of a productive self supporting person.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Most Libertarians Vote For UniParty Candidates (A Wasted Vote)
Reply #34 - Jan 9th, 2018 at 10:04pm
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Billie wrote on Jan 9th, 2018 at 6:37pm:
Everyone has an interest, even non-voters.

I have no idea what you mean by a "share".


I just mean that if you take out a segment of the population and say that they can't vote, anything done to them by the government is illegitimate force.
  

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Billie
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Re: Most Libertarians Vote For UniParty Candidates (A Wasted Vote)
Reply #35 - Jan 10th, 2018 at 6:48am
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The Opposition wrote on Jan 9th, 2018 at 10:04pm:
I just mean that if you take out a segment of the population and say that they can't vote, anything done to them by the government is illegitimate force.
Nonsense. A legitimate limited government has no grant of power to "do things" to anyone other than the few things under its granted powers, and those few things are legitimate.

Our system, based on theories of equality under the law, is prohibited from treating non-voters differently from voters.
  
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SnarkySack
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Re: Most Libertarians Vote For UniParty Candidates (A Wasted Vote)
Reply #36 - Jan 10th, 2018 at 9:13am
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Don_G wrote on Jan 9th, 2018 at 12:11pm:
The idea was to sort out the people as for their intelligence and I think that would be easy to do with an abbreviated IQ test. I would only say that the 90 level might be too high. And I also think that IQ set at 90 could disqualify a lot of politically astute people.


I hope you would agree that a person who is intellectually disabled (formerly known are "mentally retarded") has no need, nor right to vote.  I'm not sure where you would draw the line since you are always short on specifics, but I'm glad you agree that a line should be drawn.

Quote:
I think the idea of disqualifying voters already has some legs and could be encouraged by Trump but it may require a new approach to what freedom means. Maybe a new constitution too, but that's likely a good idea.

Examples of other countries that have curtailed the people's right to vote could be looked at as examples on how to do it right.


That would be exactly the wrong thing to do.  No other country is as successful as the U.S. so emulating other countries would only promote failure.


  

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Don_G
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Re: Most Libertarians Vote For UniParty Candidates (A Wasted Vote)
Reply #37 - Jan 10th, 2018 at 1:04pm
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SnarkySack wrote on Jan 10th, 2018 at 9:13am:
I hope you would agree that a person who is intellectually disabled (formerly known are "mentally retarded") has no need, nor right to vote.  I'm not sure where you would draw the line since you are always short on specifics, but I'm glad you agree that a line should be drawn.


That would be exactly the wrong thing to do.  No other country is as successful as the U.S. so emulating other countries would only promote failure.




I wouldn't draw a line to disenfranchize anybody. I would allow everyone, regardless of their mental ability to mark a ballot. And I would make sure that ballots are as simple as possible so that even the very mentally challenged could accomplish the task.

Those who proved to be incapable of marking a ballot in a way which could be understood as being their preference, would disenfranchize themselves.

Why would you disagree with any of that? Do you think you are the god who determines rights of others you consider not as worthy as yourself?


  
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SnarkySack
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Re: Most Libertarians Vote For UniParty Candidates (A Wasted Vote)
Reply #38 - Jan 10th, 2018 at 1:06pm
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Don_G wrote on Jan 10th, 2018 at 1:04pm:
I wouldn't draw a line to disenfranchize anybody. I would allow everyone, regardless of their mental ability to mark a ballot. And I would make sure that ballots are as simple as possible so that even the very mentally challenged could accomplish the task.

Those who proved to be incapable of marking a ballot in a way which could be understood as being their preference, would disenfranchize themselves.

Why would you disagree with any of that? Do you think you are the god who determines rights of others you consider not as worthy as yourself?


Yes. 

Well more of a demi-God, I suppose.
  

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Don_G
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Re: Most Libertarians Vote For UniParty Candidates (A Wasted Vote)
Reply #39 - Jan 10th, 2018 at 1:08pm
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SnarkySack wrote on Jan 10th, 2018 at 1:06pm:
Yes. 

Well more of a demi-God, I suppose.


And a better question still: Do you base your position on some libertarian principle?
  
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