Libertarian's Forum
Libertarian Forum to discuss politics and free market economics.
Libertarian's ForumLibertarian's ForumFreedom Forum › Does "a well regulated militia" allow the gov't to regulate firearms?
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 19 Send TopicPrint
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Does "a well regulated militia" allow the gov't to regulate firearms? (Read 1594 times)
Billie
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 28270
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Does "a well regulated militia" allow the gov't to regulate firearms?
Reply #10 - Jan 7th, 2018 at 11:45am
Print Post  
I was thinking, suppose the 1st Amendment applied only to free speech, and it was worded something like this-

"A free press, being essential to the right of the people to know what their government is doing, freedom of speech shall not be infringed."

Would that mean that people were only free to speak through organized media or through "the press"?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
SkyChief
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Online

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 5637
Joined: Aug 18th, 2014
Re: Does "a well regulated militia" allow the gov't to regulate firearms?
Reply #11 - Jan 7th, 2018 at 11:58am
Print Post  
Billie wrote on Jan 7th, 2018 at 6:58am:
Get rid of the entire Bill of Rights. It is being used as the anti-Federalists imagined it would be used, to make a spurious claim that our Rights are limited to those few enumerated in the Bill of Rights and that the government has power to do anything not specifically forbidden to it by the Bill of Rights.

Wow.  I never thought of it from that POV.  It makes sense, tho.

Quote:
...the government has power to do anything not specifically forbidden to it by the Bill of Rights.

That's the really scary part.  Too much ambiguity in there.

Billie wrote on Jan 7th, 2018 at 11:45am:
I was thinking, suppose the 1st Amendment applied only to free speech, and it was worded something like this-

"A free press, being essential to the right of the people to know what their government is doing, freedom of speech shall not be infringed."

You have my endorsement.   Smiley 

It might have more impact if the words free and press were capitalized.   The words "shall not be infringed" is a nice touch.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
SkyChief
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Online

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 5637
Joined: Aug 18th, 2014
Re: Does "a well regulated militia" allow the gov't to regulate firearms?
Reply #12 - Jan 7th, 2018 at 12:06pm
Print Post  
SnarkySack wrote on Jan 7th, 2018 at 10:33am:
The right to bear arms is a natural one, but so is the right to free speech and the founders protected that explicitly.  Why did they not do the same for an individual right to bear arms?  I'd have to say that was a result of negotiation with states who may have feared the idea of armed citizens.

makes sense to me.   Smiley


SnarkySack wrote on Jan 7th, 2018 at 10:33am:
The constitution isn't a sacred document produced by incredibly wise men who were all of a libertarian mindset. 

So I've been lying to my grandkids all this time.  Embarrassed
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Don_G
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 9234
Location: British Columbia
Joined: May 8th, 2017
Re: Does "a well regulated militia" allow the gov't to regulate firearms?
Reply #13 - Jan 7th, 2018 at 12:27pm
Print Post  
No American has the right to touch their guns in ways that make the guns feel uncomfortable. That needs to be stated in the amendment to the 2nd. amendment.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
SnarkySack
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 2786
Location: Republic of Me
Joined: Sep 11th, 2017
Re: Does "a well regulated militia" allow the gov't to regulate firearms?
Reply #14 - Jan 8th, 2018 at 8:56am
Print Post  
Billie wrote on Jan 7th, 2018 at 11:45am:
I was thinking, suppose the 1st Amendment applied only to free speech, and it was worded something like this-

"A free press, being essential to the right of the people to know what their government is doing, freedom of speech shall not be infringed."

Would that mean that people were only free to speak through organized media or through "the press"?


It could certainly be interpreted that way.  The second amendment is the only one that has that kind of dependent clause.  No other amendment in the bill of rights explains why it is needed.

As smart as the founders were, I have to think that this was not an error, but rather the result of parsing and re-parsing in negotiations with state representatives.  I'm guessing that states did not want to give up the right to regulate privately owned weapons even if they weren't doing it at the time.  Maybe they envisioned taxing them or forbidding them to non-whites or women. 

Regardless, the founders did not specify an individual right to bear arms.  If the constitution protects it, it is in the ninth and tenth amendments.


  

I used to be burnsred . . .
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Don_G
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 9234
Location: British Columbia
Joined: May 8th, 2017
Re: Does "a well regulated militia" allow the gov't to regulate firearms?
Reply #15 - Jan 8th, 2018 at 12:18pm
Print Post  
SnarkySack wrote on Jan 8th, 2018 at 8:56am:
It could certainly be interpreted that way.  The second amendment is the only one that has that kind of dependent clause.  No other amendment in the bill of rights explains why it is needed.

As smart as the founders were, I have to think that this was not an error, but rather the result of parsing and re-parsing in negotiations with state representatives.  I'm guessing that states did not want to give up the right to regulate privately owned weapons even if they weren't doing it at the time.  Maybe they envisioned taxing them or forbidding them to non-whites or women. 

Regardless, the founders did not specify an individual right to bear arms.  If the constitution protects it, it is in the ninth and tenth amendments.




I think you're giving those founders far too much credit because of your being motivated by politics. And really, they couldn't have imagined the problems that have been caused by the completely outrageous demands of the pro-gun crowd.

No doubt there's no possibility of a discussion on this issue when dogmas rules.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Billie
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 28270
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Does "a well regulated militia" allow the gov't to regulate firearms?
Reply #16 - Jan 8th, 2018 at 2:21pm
Print Post  
SnarkySack wrote on Jan 8th, 2018 at 8:56am:
It could certainly be interpreted that way.  The second amendment is the only one that has that kind of dependent clause.  No other amendment in the bill of rights explains why it is needed.

As smart as the founders were, I have to think that this was not an error, but rather the result of parsing and re-parsing in negotiations with state representatives.  I'm guessing that states did not want to give up the right to regulate privately owned weapons even if they weren't doing it at the time.  Maybe they envisioned taxing them or forbidding them to non-whites or women. 

Regardless, the founders did not specify an individual right to bear arms.  If the constitution protects it, it is in the ninth and tenth amendments.


If the only "right" to keep and bear arms is contingent on service in a government regulated militia,  then there is no right of the people to keep and bear arms, there is only the privilege (or duty) of bearing arms when in service of the government.


  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Billie
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 28270
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Does "a well regulated militia" allow the gov't to regulate firearms?
Reply #17 - Jan 8th, 2018 at 2:24pm
Print Post  
SnarkySack wrote on Jan 8th, 2018 at 8:56am:
Regardless, the founders did not specify an individual right to bear arms.  If the constitution protects it, it is in the ninth and tenth amendments.



Yes, they did, even our Supreme Court agrees, although they have this idea that Rights may be infringed...
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Don_G
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 9234
Location: British Columbia
Joined: May 8th, 2017
Re: Does "a well regulated militia" allow the gov't to regulate firearms?
Reply #18 - Jan 8th, 2018 at 2:32pm
Print Post  
SnarkySack wrote on Jan 8th, 2018 at 8:56am:
 

Regardless, the founders did not specify an individual right to bear arms.  If the constitution protects it, it is in the ninth and tenth amendments.




That's correct!

Maybe some progress can be made on that bullshit 2A after all. Ignoring all the obvious social harm the rightists promote out of it's interpretation.

Some people would think that the social harm would be of more importance than upholding dogma that serves no purpose. The point being, nobody intends to take all your guns away so people can live without fear of getting shot dead and the people can have their guns too!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
SnarkySack
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 2786
Location: Republic of Me
Joined: Sep 11th, 2017
Re: Does "a well regulated militia" allow the gov't to regulate firearms?
Reply #19 - Jan 8th, 2018 at 2:33pm
Print Post  
Don_G wrote on Jan 8th, 2018 at 2:32pm:
That's correct!

Maybe some progress can be made on that bullshit 2A after all. Ignoring all the obvious social harm the rightists promote out of it's interpretation.

Some people would think that the social harm would be of more importance than upholding dogma that serves no purpose. The point being, nobody intends to take all your guns away so people can live without fear of getting shot dead and the people can have their guns too!


I can't take you seriously on this issue until you explain why counties with the strictest gun control have he highest homicide rates.


  

I used to be burnsred . . .
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 19
Send TopicPrint
 
Libertarian's ForumLibertarian's ForumFreedom Forum › Does "a well regulated militia" allow the gov't to regulate firearms?
Libertarian's Forum

Libertarian's Forum Information Rules, Agreement and Privacy Policy