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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Does "a well regulated militia" allow the gov't to regulate firearms? (Read 2116 times)
Don_G
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Re: Does "a well regulated militia" allow the gov't to regulate firearms?
Reply #20 - Jan 8th, 2018 at 2:47pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Jan 8th, 2018 at 2:33pm:
I can't take you seriously on this issue until you explain why counties with the strictest gun control have he highest homicide rates.




It doesn't matter. Jeff stated the truth.

And why should I hook into such an incorrect statement as that?

Initiate it in a sensible way with some examples and we'll be into it with both feet. Incorrect statements won't get me going.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Does "a well regulated militia" allow the gov't to regulate firearms?
Reply #21 - Jan 8th, 2018 at 2:57pm
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That's correct!


No, it's not. the 2nd Amendment says the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

If you try to make that a subordinate clause to the desire of having a well regulated Militia, it becomes not a right, but a duty or privilege that people have when serving in a government organization.

If it was a subordinate clause, it would correctly say that people serving in the Militia should be armed, which is nonsensical on two levels; unarmed Militia aren't Militia, and all adult Americans at the time of the writing of the 2nd Amendment were part of the unorganized militia, which was expected to have arms and know how to use them.

The arguments are so persuasive, even the Supreme Court had to accept them and verify that we have a right to keep and bear arms.
  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: Does "a well regulated militia" allow the gov't to regulate firearms?
Reply #22 - Jan 8th, 2018 at 3:21pm
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Jeff wrote on Jan 8th, 2018 at 2:21pm:
If the only "right" to keep and bear arms is contingent on service in a government regulated militia,  then there is no right of the people to keep and bear arms, there is only the privilege (or duty) of bearing arms when in service of the government.




That's only true if you believe in a doctrine of "enumerated rights" instead of "enumerated powers."  I don't.  I take the ninth and tenth amendments seriously in that there are other rights not mentioned which are not disparaged or diminished by the fact of not being specified.  The individual right to bear arms is as natural as the individual right to self-defense and is therefore protected by the constitution. 

The dependent clause "A well regulated militia being necessary to the preservation of a free state" shouldn't be there if the amendment were intended to preserve that individual right.  It was intended to preserve the right of states to have militias.  In other words to keep the federal government from saying that people only have the right to bear arms in federal service, not state service. 

I wish the founders had enumerated the individual right to bear arms, but I have to recognize the truth that they did not.

  

"I think I'll backtrack." - Jeff
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Jeff
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Re: Does "a well regulated militia" allow the gov't to regulate firearms?
Reply #23 - Jan 8th, 2018 at 3:28pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Jan 8th, 2018 at 3:21pm:
That's only true if you believe in a doctrine of "enumerated rights" instead of "enumerated powers."  I don't.  I take the ninth and tenth amendments seriously in that there are other rights not mentioned which are not disparaged or diminished by the fact of not being specified.  The individual right to bear arms is as natural as the individual right to self-defense and is therefore protected by the constitution. 

The dependent clause "A well regulated militia being necessary to the preservation of a free state" shouldn't be there if the amendment were intended to preserve that individual right.  It was intended to preserve the right of states to have militias.  In other words to keep the federal government from saying that people only have the right to bear arms in federal service, not state service. 

I wish the founders had enumerated the individual right to bear arms, but I have to recognize the truth that they did not.

As I've said, I side with those who maintained that a Bill of Rights was a mistake, but the OP obviously alludes to the 2nd Amendment, and I don't think it's likely that a movement to erase the first ten Amendments has much traction...

States don't have rights. States have the power to organize and call out Militias.

That power precedes the Constitution and could only have been removed from the States by explicit language in the U.S. Constitution.
  
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Don_G
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Re: Does "a well regulated militia" allow the gov't to regulate firearms?
Reply #24 - Jan 8th, 2018 at 6:22pm
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Jeff wrote on Jan 8th, 2018 at 3:28pm:
As I've said, I side with those who maintained that a Bill of Rights was a mistake, but the OP obviously alludes to the 2nd Amendment, and I don't think it's likely that a movement to erase the first ten Amendments has much traction...

States don't have rights. States have the power to organize and call out Militias.

That power precedes the Constitution and could only have been removed from the States by explicit language in the U.S. Constitution.


Guns have rights to not be touched in places that make the guns feel uncomfortable.

But only in America and being touched by Americans. Canadian guns have no rights.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Does "a well regulated militia" allow the gov't to regulate firearms?
Reply #25 - Jan 8th, 2018 at 7:32pm
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Guns have rights to not be touched in places that make the guns feel uncomfortable.

But only in America and being touched by Americans. Canadian guns have no rights.
fooch Cheesy
  
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Don_G
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Re: Does "a well regulated militia" allow the gov't to regulate firearms?
Reply #26 - Jan 9th, 2018 at 1:04pm
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Jeff wrote on Jan 8th, 2018 at 7:32pm:
fooch Cheesy


I second that! These gungoon topics have no place on a libertarian forum. Libertarians claim the rights and freedom to enable slaughters of their children on well established principle.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Does "a well regulated militia" allow the gov't to regulate firearms?
Reply #27 - Jan 9th, 2018 at 2:37pm
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Libertarians claim the rights and freedom to enable slaughters of their children on well established principle.
Libertarians recognize the right to self defense. You think there is no such right. Libertarians can't understand how you can be so obtuse.
  
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Don_G
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Re: Does "a well regulated militia" allow the gov't to regulate firearms?
Reply #28 - Jan 9th, 2018 at 2:48pm
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Jeff wrote on Jan 9th, 2018 at 2:37pm:
Libertarians recognize the right to self defense. You think there is no such right. Libertarians can't understand how you can be so obtuse.

Even libertarians don't have a right to touch their guns in places that make the guns feel uncomfortable.

As to rights for more guns, the more the better!

Trump is going to have a very positive influence on this! Kill a child for jesus Jeff!
  
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Jeff
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Re: Does "a well regulated militia" allow the gov't to regulate firearms?
Reply #29 - Jan 9th, 2018 at 2:52pm
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Even libertarians don't have a right to touch their guns in places that make the guns feel uncomfortable.

fooch
  
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