Libertarian's Forum
Libertarian Forum to discuss politics and free market economics.
Libertarian's ForumLibertarian's ForumFreedom Forum › Does "a well regulated militia" allow the gov't to regulate firearms?
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 ... 6 7 [8] 9 10 ... 17 Send TopicPrint
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Does "a well regulated militia" allow the gov't to regulate firearms? (Read 774 times)
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Online

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 24924
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Does "a well regulated militia" allow the gov't to regulate firearms?
Reply #70 - Jan 11th, 2018 at 1:55pm
Print Post  
burnsred wrote on Jan 11th, 2018 at 1:47pm:
I don’t. As I said, someone I know does.

His purpose is home defense. In the case of a suitcase nuke my friend believes in the mutually assured destruction strategy.

So you have an anarchist friend who is even crazier than you are. I'm not surprised.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
burnsred
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 1648
Joined: Sep 11th, 2017
Re: Does "a well regulated militia" allow the gov't to regulate firearms?
Reply #71 - Jan 11th, 2018 at 4:22pm
Print Post  
Jeff wrote on Jan 11th, 2018 at 1:55pm:
So you have an anarchist friend who is even crazier than you are. I'm not surprised.


So you say that crazy anarchists have the right to own suitcase nukes?


  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Online

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 24924
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Does "a well regulated militia" allow the gov't to regulate firearms?
Reply #72 - Jan 11th, 2018 at 4:54pm
Print Post  
burnsred wrote on Jan 11th, 2018 at 4:22pm:
So you say that crazy anarchists have the right to own suitcase nukes?



Did you read all the great things Jefferson said about people being armed?

Which one is your favorite?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Online

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 24924
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Does "a well regulated militia" allow the gov't to regulate firearms?
Reply #73 - Jan 11th, 2018 at 6:46pm
Print Post  
The idea that the 2nd Amendment was an intentional deception of the Founders, to secretly pave the way for a new tyrannical government to arise and disarm the people really pisses me off.

I'm beginning to get a bit riled that people still question our right to be armed.

All of the arguments against an armed populace are specious nonsense at best, and most of them are just plain lies.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
burnsred
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 1648
Joined: Sep 11th, 2017
Re: Does "a well regulated militia" allow the gov't to regulate firearms?
Reply #74 - Jan 11th, 2018 at 8:26pm
Print Post  
Jeff wrote on Jan 11th, 2018 at 1:39pm:
Your contention is that everybody who participated in framing the Constitution and promoting it to the people and arguing for it in the State legislatures (and there were a very very lot of them) all conspired together to lie and misrepresent their beliefs about the Right of individuals to be armed?
You compare them to Obama?
Shame on you.


Right.  Owning and raping slaves pales in comparison with lying about a bill everyone with half a brain knew he had never read.

I never said there was a conspiracy regarding the second amendment.  I said it was a compromise.  My belief is that the dependent clause that specifically states that the right to bear arms is for the purpose of a well-regulated militia was put into it as a compromise with those who feared that the wrong kind of people would be armed.

We don't have to wonder who Jefferson, Washington and Lincoln thought were the "wrong kind" of people.  They supported the enslavement of blacks citizens of the United States so clearly they would not have supported their right to bear arms.  So the compromise was to allow individuals to bear arms if they were part of a militia, from which Blacks could easily be excluded.  Blacks had no right to serve as real soldiers, sailors, airmen and Marines in the U.S. military until after WWII. 

Before you start calling me names again, yes they certainly were citizens.   I don't care what Madison and Jefferson and Washington and Lincoln's constitution said about fractional human beings.  Being a citizen in the land in which you are born is a natural right or there are no natural rights at all.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
burnsred
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 1648
Joined: Sep 11th, 2017
Re: Does "a well regulated militia" allow the gov't to regulate firearms?
Reply #75 - Jan 11th, 2018 at 8:28pm
Print Post  
Jeff wrote on Jan 11th, 2018 at 4:54pm:
Did you read all the great things Jefferson said about people being armed?

Which one is your favorite?


No, I haven't because I know he only meant certain kinds of people.  If I read it, I would first have to go through it and strike over "people" and pencil in "white male landowners."

Try that yourself and see if it seems so inspirational.  Or hell, you've never named a specific slaveholder that you don't like so it may still be inspirational for you.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
burnsred
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 1648
Joined: Sep 11th, 2017
Re: Does "a well regulated militia" allow the gov't to regulate firearms?
Reply #76 - Jan 11th, 2018 at 8:43pm
Print Post  
Jeff wrote on Jan 11th, 2018 at 6:46pm:
The idea that the 2nd Amendment was an intentional deception of the Founders, to secretly pave the way for a new tyrannical government to arise and disarm the people really pisses me off.


You should really not let this forum get under your skin so much.  You and Don both have that problem.  I have noticed that whenever you lose an argument to me, Don becomes more childish.  I don't know how to interpret that, but there it is.
Quote:
I'm beginning to get a bit riled that people still question our right to be armed.


Do you agree with me that the right to bear arms is "endowed by our creator" be that creator Darwinian evolution, the God of the bible, the Koran and the Book of Mormon or some more vague and less anthropomorphic intelligent designer?

Quote:
All of the arguments against an armed populace are specious nonsense at best, and most of them are just plain lies.


Not all of them.  What we libertarians often forget is that there are positive benefits to authoritarian government.  In countries in which there was never a right to bear arms and in which the government has, if anything, limited gun ownership even more than when it was limited to the King and his men, there are far fewer accidental gun deaths than in the United States. 

We libertarians don't believe that government never helps.  We believe that it does far more harm than good unless it is severely limited.

No, there was no secret plot to pave the way for authoritarianism.  What we had was a relatively weak federal government that sought to make itself a relatively stronger federal government.  It's creators did not see the snowball effect it would have on limiting freedom of the individual. 

On the other hand, I would say that on average, so to speak, individuals under our current nanny state are at least as free as individuals under the nascent federal government.  It is hard to quantify degrees of freedom to calculate an average, but if a white male landowner just prior to the adoption of the constitution had a freedom rating of ten and his wife a freedom rating of five and a slave had a freedom rating of zero, what was the average freedom of a citizen in Alabama?  On that same scale, what would be the average freedom rating of a citizen with no prison record and not serving in the military in 2018?

The federal government was indeed instrumental in giving more freedom to women and minorities in the last half of last century.  But that was government vs government so still not an argument against libertarianism.

Anyway, as to your anger management . . . what I do is read your and Don's posts during the day for a laugh and later, like in a few minutes from now, I have a couple Bourbons over ices and re-read them for even better laughs.  You might try the Bourbon before you start so you don't get so upset at the fact that Jefferson was a slaveowner who raped his underaged slaves and had a movie made about how how wonderful that was.

 
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Online

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 24924
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Does "a well regulated militia" allow the gov't to regulate firearms?
Reply #77 - Jan 12th, 2018 at 7:27am
Print Post  
burnsred wrote on Jan 11th, 2018 at 8:26pm:
I never said there was a conspiracy regarding the second amendment.  I said it was a compromise.  My belief is that the dependent clause that specifically states that the right to bear arms is for the purpose of a well-regulated militia was put into it as a compromise with those who feared that the wrong kind of people would be armed.


This is pure nonsense. It might be your belief, but it is based on nothing but your fantasies.

There is an incredible amount of evidence showing that everyone at the time understood that the Right to bear arms was fundamental.

Yes, they believed the right was limited to free men, but that does not mean that the founders were racist slavers intending to preserve slavery or idiots who would disarm everyone because the slavers feared their slaves. A few of them were, the ones who later caused the war against slavery by insisting on a "right" to keep people as livestock. You say the states those slavers controlled had a "right" to leave the Union in order to preserve slavery. That's an evil construction. People have rights, states have duties and obligations.

The actual compromise was the inclusion of slavery in the Constitution by people who hated the institution but believed the power of the slave states was essential to giving the new U.S. a chance to survive.

You need to read this essay-

https://www.libertarianism.org/encyclopedia/abolitionism

There was a compromise on slavery, but not on the Right to bear arms. The Tories, who mostly left after the Revolutionary war, might have believed that there was no Right to be armed, but that Right is most certainly preserved and protected by our Constitution.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Online

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 24924
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Does "a well regulated militia" allow the gov't to regulate firearms?
Reply #78 - Jan 12th, 2018 at 7:36am
Print Post  
burnsred wrote on Jan 11th, 2018 at 8:28pm:
No, I haven't because I know he only meant certain kinds of people.  If I read it, I would first have to go through it and strike over "people" and pencil in "white male landowners."

Try that yourself and see if it seems so inspirational.  Or hell, you've never named a specific slaveholder that you don't like so it may still be inspirational for you.
Jefferson believed slavery was a great evil and agonized over what could be done about it. He was what they called a "gradualist" who hoped a good solution could be found, but believed that simply freeing all the slaves would not have a good outcome for either the slaves or the nation.

https://www.libertarianism.org/encyclopedia/abolitionism

You, in your ignorance, accuse someone who thought slavery was a horrible evil and spent a lot of time trying to think of a good way to end it of wanting to preserve it.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Online

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 24924
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Does "a well regulated militia" allow the gov't to regulate firearms?
Reply #79 - Jan 12th, 2018 at 7:42am
Print Post  
burnsred wrote on Jan 11th, 2018 at 8:43pm:
What we libertarians often forget is that there are positive benefits to authoritarian government.  In countries in which there was never a right to bear arms and in which the government has, if anything, limited gun ownership even more than when it was limited to the King and his men, there are far fewer accidental gun deaths than in the United States. 


The right exists everywhere that people are alive. You keep saying it's a natural God given Right, then talk about places where the right never existed...

Your argument that having an authoritarian government deny the right to be armed is a "positive benefit" because it prevents accidental deaths is specious nonsense.

Authoritarian governments who have denied the right to be armed to their people have engaged in a very lot of intentional killing of their subjects.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 ... 6 7 [8] 9 10 ... 17
Send TopicPrint
 
Libertarian's ForumLibertarian's ForumFreedom Forum › Does "a well regulated militia" allow the gov't to regulate firearms?
Libertarian's Forum

Libertarian's Forum Information Rules, Agreement and Privacy Policy