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SnarkySack
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Re: Does "a well regulated militia" allow the gov't to regulate firearms?
Reply #80 - Jan 12th, 2018 at 1:05pm
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burnsred wrote yesterday at 8:43pm:

What we libertarians often forget is that there are positive benefits to authoritarian government.  In countries in which there was never a right to bear arms and in which the government has, if anything, limited gun ownership even more than when it was limited to the King and his men, there are far fewer accidental gun deaths than in the United States. 



Jeff wrote on Jan 12th, 2018 at 7:42am:
The right exists everywhere that people are alive. You keep saying it's a natural God given Right, then talk about places where the right never existed...


Yes, I mispoke.  I meant countries in which the government never recognized the right to bear arms.

Quote:
Your argument that having an authoritarian government deny the right to be armed is a "positive benefit" because it prevents accidental deaths is specious nonsense.

Authoritarian governments who have denied the right to be armed to their people have engaged in a very lot of intentional killing of their subjects.


Sure, they have.  But that doesn't change the fact that it also prevented accidental shootings.  We have to be honest about what we lose when we (someday) shrink government as well as what we gain.

Look at this study:


Researchers seeking to identify each state's most "distinctive" kind of injury-related death uncovered a pattern that could help cut shootings across the South.

The study by the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health found that seven states — West Virginia, Kentucky, South Carolina, Louisiana, Arkansas, Alabama and Tennessee — all suffered from disproportionately high rates of unintentional firearm deaths.

The researchers noted that none of the states have laws requiring the safe storage of guns, which have been shown to prevent accidental shootings, particularly among children.

"Restricting access for unauthorized individuals through safe storage of firearms might help to reduce the large disparity of unintentional firearm deaths occurring in these states," the Johns Hopkins researchers wrote.

Many gun-rights advocates oppose such measures, saying the government has no right to determine how people keep themselves safe at home. Training and education are more effective, they say. Some warn that safe storage laws are being used by the government to take people's guns away.
. . .

When the researchers mapped out what type of injury death in each state surpassed the national average, they saw a swath of states across the Southeast and Appalachia where the top result was accidental firearm death.

. . .

The researchers also found a disproportionate number of accidental motor vehicle crashes in Montana, South Dakota and Nebraska. That may be because those states have relatively few laws that require certain practices known to reduce car injuries, including seat belts, ignition locks for drunk-driving convicts, booster seats for children and restrictions on nighttime driving for teenagers, the researchers said.


https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/study-flags-seven-states-high-rates-acciden...

Am I advocating more gun laws?  Nope.  But I am willing to recognize that opposing those laws means that there will be more accidental shootings.  Just as opposing restrictions on driving will mean more automobile accidents.  We oppose those laws because we are unwilling to trade freedom for safety, not because they never do anything.

If you're not an honest libertarian, you're not a libertarian, you a utopian fantasist. 


  

I used to be burnsred . . .
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Don_G
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Re: Does "a well regulated militia" allow the gov't to regulate firearms?
Reply #81 - Jan 12th, 2018 at 1:41pm
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SnarkySack wrote on Jan 12th, 2018 at 1:05pm:
[b]
burnsred wrote yesterday at 8:43pm:
Just as opposing restrictions on driving will mean more automobile accidents.


Which leaves the extremist somewhere between getting rid of traffic lights or stop signs and mandating the use of seatbelts.

Which has to be interpreted by normal people as the extremist's argument be considered invalid.

It applies to gun laws or lack of gun laws too.

In practice extremists will seek out gun laws that allow machine guns or any and all automatic weapons. And then when there is a gun massacre at a elementary school they will hold an NRA rally near the school to bring home their point.

Their tactics have proven successful on gun control avoidance but not yet successful on eliminating traffic lights.

Although there have undoubtedly been extremist individuals who attempt to make their point by driving through stop signs.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Does "a well regulated militia" allow the gov't to regulate firearms?
Reply #82 - Jan 12th, 2018 at 2:07pm
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SnarkySack wrote on Jan 12th, 2018 at 1:05pm:
Sure, they have.  But that doesn't change the fact that it also prevented accidental shootings. 
You want to balance the potential of a few accidental shootings against what you admit is a natural right, and you think the natural right should be infringed to prevent accidental harm, and that would be a good thing...

Now many other rights will you dispense with on the same basis?

There is no denying that free people have accidents and cause harm. You say it would be a benefit to make us unfree, and that would eliminate accidents?

It's not a good trade.
  
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Don_G
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Re: Does "a well regulated militia" allow the gov't to regulate firearms?
Reply #83 - Jan 12th, 2018 at 2:11pm
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Jeff wrote on Jan 12th, 2018 at 2:07pm:
You want to balance the potential of a few accidental shootings against what you admit is a natural right, and you think the natural right should be infringed to prevent accidental harm, and that would be a good thing...

Now many other rights will you dispense with on the same basis?

There is no denying that free people have accidents and cause harm. You say it would be a benefit to make us unfree, and that would eliminate accidents?

It's not a good trade.


Just a few is somewhat different from the statistics of 100,000 gun deaths over 3 years. Or a million over 30.

Just trying to help you get the parameters correct in order to aid your argument with burnsred.

Funny how you tried to get away with 'just a few'!
  
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Jeff
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Re: Does "a well regulated militia" allow the gov't to regulate firearms?
Reply #84 - Jan 12th, 2018 at 2:22pm
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Quote:
Just a few is somewhat different from the statistics of 100,000 gun deaths over 3 years. Or a million over 30.


Lying with numbers again I see. Shame on you.
  
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Don_G
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Re: Does "a well regulated militia" allow the gov't to regulate firearms?
Reply #85 - Jan 12th, 2018 at 2:28pm
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Jeff wrote on Jan 12th, 2018 at 2:22pm:
Lying with numbers again I see. Shame on you.


ABout 30,00 a year. I have no incentive to lie about it. If it's incorrect then say so and shame me appropriately.

You're always guaranteed to get an honest response if it's done politely and legitimately.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Does "a well regulated militia" allow the gov't to regulate firearms?
Reply #86 - Jan 12th, 2018 at 2:51pm
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Quote:
ABout 30,00 a year. I have no incentive to lie about it. If it's incorrect then say so and shame me appropriately.


Accidental deaths due to firearms are fewer than 1000/year. In 2014, more people died from falling off of bicycles than from gun accidents.
  
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Don_G
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Re: Does "a well regulated militia" allow the gov't to regulate firearms?
Reply #87 - Jan 12th, 2018 at 2:56pm
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Jeff wrote on Jan 12th, 2018 at 2:51pm:
Accidental deaths due to firearms are fewer than 1000/year. In 2014, more people died from falling off of bicycles than from gun accidents.


If I stated 'accidental' then I erred. If I referred to gun related deaths then I stand by what I said.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States
  
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Jeff
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Re: Does "a well regulated militia" allow the gov't to regulate firearms?
Reply #88 - Jan 12th, 2018 at 3:10pm
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Quote:
If I stated 'accidental' then I erred. If I referred to gun related deaths then I stand by what I said.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States

Those numbers are lies too. Ask me why. I might tell you later. Almost all of the homicides are in the "progressive" big cities anyway...

No matter, weren't you paying any attention to what burnsred was talking about? It was accidental deaths from guns.
  
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SnarkySack
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Re: Does "a well regulated militia" allow the gov't to regulate firearms?
Reply #89 - Jan 12th, 2018 at 7:59pm
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Jeff wrote on Jan 12th, 2018 at 2:07pm:
You want to balance the potential of a few accidental shootings against what you admit is a natural right, and you think the natural right should be infringed to prevent accidental harm, and that would be a good thing...


No, I don't want to take away that natural right.  But I don't want to be honest and admit that defending it comes at a cost and part of that cost is accidental deaths by firearms.  Just as legalizing drugs will mean more accidental overdoses and legalizing driving without a seat belt will mean more accidental automobile deaths and lowering the drinking age to 18 will mean more drunk driving and eliminating OSHA regulations will mean more workplace accidents.

You know all those things are true, but you want' to dishonestly push libertarianism as a cost-free alternative to nanny government.   

Quote:
Now many other rights will you dispense with on the same basis?


None, but we will keep our rights with our eyes wide open as to what they cost.

Quote:
There is no denying that free people have accidents and cause harm. You say it would be a benefit to make us unfree, and that would eliminate accidents?

It's not a good trade.


No, it is not and that is my point.  But we have to be honest about that.


  

I used to be burnsred . . .
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