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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Universal Suffrage a Hinderance to Libertarianism? (Read 1282 times)
SkyChief
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Re: Universal Suffrage a Hinderance to Libertarianism?
Reply #10 - Jan 7th, 2018 at 3:05pm
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How crass and shallow of you to assume you could judge a person's IQ on those sort of questions. Excepting perhaps the first question? With some qualifications!

What a sad and disgusting example of your complete ignorance!

In your stupidity you have unveiled your dishonest motive.

Man oh man, I could have never imagined you could discredit your worthless hide in so completely in so few words! 

Here we go again.. another Don_G tantrum.   All a bunch of ad-hominem, meaningless BS.

Naturally, you failed the quiz.  You're Canadian.  Most American 9th graders would have no problem answering these questions correctly.

Whatever made you think this was supposed to be an IQ test?

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But the second question is loaded with political biased ideology and would never do because of divided opinions. You would have to be demanding that your political opinion is accepted as right and other opinions not possibly being acceptable.

Congress makes Laws. All voters should know this.  The obvious answer is C Make Laws and conduct investigations to oversee the Executive Branch.
  
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SnarkySack
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Re: Universal Suffrage a Hinderance to Libertarianism?
Reply #11 - Jan 7th, 2018 at 3:59pm
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I certainly want to believe you're serious about disenfranchizing all the people with an IQ below 90, but I can't get there.


I can understand why you would single that out if it hits home with you. 

Don't forget that I work in education with people who are either behaviorally challenged or intellectually impaired or struggling to learn English.  I work hard for their well-being and fight for their dignity when I need to.  That doesn't mean I want them picking the president or helping decide bond elections.  They have no basis to do so.

  

I used to be burnsred . . .
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The Opposition
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Re: Universal Suffrage a Hinderance to Libertarianism?
Reply #12 - Jan 7th, 2018 at 4:53pm
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SnarkySack wrote on Jan 6th, 2018 at 9:40pm:
First of all, there is no universal suffrage.  All nations, including the United States and all fifty states, have restrictions on who may vote.  When I was fifteen, I got my first on-the-books job and paid income taxes without representation until the 1980 elections.  Felons may not vote in nearly all states.  Non-citizens don't vote even though the pay the taxes and live under the government.  So the question is how to limit voter eligibility, not whether to limit it.


I don't support any of those things. I believe that if we are to vote, everyone should be able to including illegal immigrants and felons. That's what consent of the governed means. Either you let them vote, same as you, or your government has no jurisdiction over them.

By participating in the voting process, the voter is admitting to the legitimacy of the government. If they don't do that, arresting them is force.

No, they won't vote for libertarianism, but if you want a libertarian country, it's not going to last long. It will be prosperous and others will want a share. They will come in force (because you have open borders) and give themselves that share.

Sure, you can (and did) make a good argument about a sustainable society that is as close to libertarian as possible, but it won't actually be libertarian because purist libertarianism is unsustainable.
  

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Jeff
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Re: Universal Suffrage a Hinderance to Libertarianism?
Reply #13 - Jan 8th, 2018 at 8:14am
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The Opposition wrote on Jan 7th, 2018 at 4:53pm:
I don't support any of those things. I believe that if we are to vote, everyone should be able to including illegal immigrants and felons. That's what consent of the governed means. Either you let them vote, same as you, or your government has no jurisdiction over them.

Felons, by their felonious acts, lose some (sometimes all) of their rights to participate in society.
When they stop being self-ruled by the laws of society that protect other people and other people's rights, they self-select to become outlaws, to live outside society. They therefore justifiably lose their rights to to have any voice in a society they have voluntarily left.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Universal Suffrage a Hinderance to Libertarianism?
Reply #14 - Jan 8th, 2018 at 8:21am
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The Opposition wrote on Jan 7th, 2018 at 4:53pm:
No, they won't vote for libertarianism, but if you want a libertarian country, it's not going to last long.
Libertarians want a government that will protect their Liberty and their Rights. For any government to do that, it will be required to use force against people who do not respect the Rights of others.
It is nonsense to talk of a "libertarian government".
The type of government libertarians want permits citizens living under it's laws to live as communists, as long as they do it voluntarily.

Libertarians don't want a government that even thinks about "creating a society" of any kind. We want a government that permits people to voluntarily create the sorts of societies they want to live in, while refusing to let any person or group of people to violate the equal Rights of others.
  
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ahhell
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Re: Universal Suffrage a Hinderance to Libertarianism?
Reply #15 - Jan 8th, 2018 at 9:54am
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The answer is yes, more expansive suffrage is a hinderance to libertarianism and good governance generally.  The problem is that the fix to that opens the door to far worse stuff.  Voter proficiency exam is easily manipulated into an exam that will only let voters that think a certain way to vote.  That isn't necessarily going to be the most freedom oriented voters.
  
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SkyChief
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Re: Universal Suffrage a Hinderance to Libertarianism?
Reply #16 - Jan 8th, 2018 at 11:26am
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ahhell wrote on Jan 8th, 2018 at 9:54am:
Voter proficiency exam is easily manipulated into an exam that will only let voters that think a certain way to vote.  That isn't necessarily going to be the most freedom oriented voters.

Explain how someone knowing the three branches of government will complel them to vote a certain way.

An informed electorate is the best electorate.  Look what happens when the electorate is ill-informed!  We're living in it.
  
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ahhell
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Re: Universal Suffrage a Hinderance to Libertarianism?
Reply #17 - Jan 8th, 2018 at 11:34am
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SkyChief wrote on Jan 8th, 2018 at 11:26am:
Explain how someone knowing the three branches of government will complel them to vote a certain way.

An informed electorate is the best electorate.   Look what happens when the electorate is ill-informed!  We're living in it.

It won't but giving the government the power to weed out some potential voters based on how the answer some questions gives them the power to do so based on other questions.  And suddenly you get Jim Crow style voter literacy tests, perhaps slanted in such a way as to ensure only supporters of expansive government answer the questions "correctly".
  
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SkyChief
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Re: Universal Suffrage a Hinderance to Libertarianism?
Reply #18 - Jan 8th, 2018 at 11:51am
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ahhell wrote on Jan 8th, 2018 at 11:34am:
It won't but giving the government the power to weed out some potential voters based on how the answer some questions gives them the power to do so based on other questions.  And suddenly you get Jim Crow style voter literacy tests, perhaps slanted in such a way as to ensure only supporters of expansive government answer the questions "correctly".

There is no "weeding out" of voters. With the VPQ I proposed, everyone gets to go to the polls and cast their vote(s). 

If they want their votes counted, they must complete the VPQ portion at the end of the ballot.  They already know the VPQ questions before they go to the polls because the VPQ questions were included on thier Sample Ballots.

They have plenty of time to find the answers tho questions.  It shouldn't take more that 5 or 6 minutes to type WHAT ARE THE THREE BRANCHES OF GOVERNMENT in the search bar of thier web browser.

There...I just did it.  Took me all of 12 seconds.  Here's what popped up:

"Our federal government has three parts. They are the Executive, (President and about 5,000,000 workers) Legislative (Senate and House of Representatives) and Judicial (Supreme Court and lower Courts). The President of the United States administers the Executive Branch of our government."

This aint rocket science!
  
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Don_G
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Re: Universal Suffrage a Hinderance to Libertarianism?
Reply #19 - Jan 8th, 2018 at 12:04pm
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ahhell wrote on Jan 8th, 2018 at 9:54am:
The answer is yes, more expansive suffrage is a hinderance to libertarianism and good governance generally.  The problem is that the fix to that opens the door to far worse stuff.  Voter proficiency exam is easily manipulated into an exam that will only let voters that think a certain way to vote.  That isn't necessarily going to be the most freedom oriented voters.


That's exactly what the chief tried to do. What was supposed to be an IQ test to disqualify those under 90 became a political test with libertarian priorities. I can't believe there's any interest in anything else from his POV.

I basically agree with Oppo when he says nobody should be disqualified. It's a slippery slope that the US has already started down by disqualifying criminals.
  
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