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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Universal Suffrage a Hinderance to Libertarianism? (Read 1566 times)
Don_G
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Re: Universal Suffrage a Hinderance to Libertarianism?
Reply #20 - Jan 8th, 2018 at 12:13pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Jan 7th, 2018 at 3:59pm:
I can understand why you would single that out if it hits home with you. 

Don't forget that I work in education with people who are either behaviorally challenged or intellectually impaired or struggling to learn English.  I work hard for their well-being and fight for their dignity when I need to.  That doesn't mean I want them picking the president or helping decide bond elections.  They have no basis to do so.


I hear yoiu but I don't agree. Those people you want disqualified aren't going to choose the president in any case because they're a small minority. This speaks to the principles of democracy.

You could just as easily make the argument for requiring an IQ of say, 125 to qualify to pick the president. And in fact that argument has already been hinted at on this forum.

At the moment, the majority of the people who chose Trump would most likely fall on the left side of the bell curve for IQ's of the population. Granted there would be some who are situated on the right side, but I would suggest fewer than those  that didn't vote for Trump.

That is my perception and it likely could be proven by polling the people along with a quick test of intelligence.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Universal Suffrage a Hinderance to Libertarianism?
Reply #21 - Jan 8th, 2018 at 2:29pm
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SkyChief wrote on Jan 8th, 2018 at 11:51am:
There is no "weeding out" of voters. With the VPQ I proposed...
You aren't in charge of designing the test or selecting the questions.
Who will be?
How will you prevent the first question from being "Is health care a right?" and the 'correct' answer from being "Yes"?
  
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Don_G
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Re: Universal Suffrage a Hinderance to Libertarianism?
Reply #22 - Jan 8th, 2018 at 2:37pm
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Jeff wrote on Jan 8th, 2018 at 2:29pm:
You aren't in charge of designing the test or selecting the questions.
Who will be?
How will you prevent the first question from being "Is health care a right?" and the 'correct' answer from being "Yes"?

That's essentially what he tried to do with his IQ test he devised. He got caught flatfooted.

The first reason why he got caught flatfooted is because he tried to say it wasn't an IQ test when that had been firmly established by the entire conversation.

As if it wasn't all about disqualifying people who fell under the 90 on an IQ test.

He has no idea he would be disqualifying about 35% of the people. Fukking moronic shit!

He could start all over again and just be honest and say that if somebody doesn't think like a libertarians, they shouldn't be allowed to vote.

And that's why the Chief must be seen as a transparently foolish clown!
  
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Jeff
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Re: Universal Suffrage a Hinderance to Libertarianism?
Reply #23 - Jan 8th, 2018 at 3:37pm
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That's essentially what he tried to do with his IQ test he devised. He got caught flatfooted.

The first reason why he got caught flatfooted is because he tried to say it wasn't an IQ test when that had been firmly established by the entire conversation.

As if it wasn't all about disqualifying people who fell under the 90 on an IQ test.

He has no idea he would be disqualifying about 35% of the people. Fukking moronic shit!

He could start all over again and just be honest and say that if somebody doesn't think like a libertarians, they shouldn't be allowed to vote.

And that's why the Chief must be seen as a transparently foolish clown!

So, what do you think about my idea, that only self-supporting productive people be allowed to vote?
  
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Don_G
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Re: Universal Suffrage a Hinderance to Libertarianism?
Reply #24 - Jan 8th, 2018 at 6:00pm
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Jeff wrote on Jan 8th, 2018 at 3:37pm:
So, what do you think about my idea, that only self-supporting productive people be allowed to vote?


Not much because it's not your position.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Universal Suffrage a Hinderance to Libertarianism?
Reply #25 - Jan 8th, 2018 at 10:22pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Jan 7th, 2018 at 3:59pm:
I can understand why you would single that out if it hits home with you. 

Don't forget that I work in education with people who are either behaviorally challenged or intellectually impaired or struggling to learn English.  I work hard for their well-being and fight for their dignity when I need to.  That doesn't mean I want them picking the president or helping decide bond elections.  They have no basis to do so.


Surely you understand that you have a serious perspective issue here. To an intellect like mine, normal people are unfit to make their own decisions or to vote, and I see them duped into voting for policies that not only hurt them but everyone, and I see them tweaking out on lottery tickets.

I won't advocate that their right to vote, or to choose, be taken away, no matter how unfit they are. They're also people. And in being people, under the rule of the government, they have a legit share in how it's operated, exactly the same as you or me.

Imagine you share a car with a baby. The baby owns half, and you own half. You've driven some. Now the baby wants to drive. This is how I see the entire world, all the time. This is why my instinct leans authoritarian.

I ignore my instinct and support liberty, because, although ruinous, it is also right.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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SkyChief
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Re: Universal Suffrage a Hinderance to Libertarianism?
Reply #26 - Jan 8th, 2018 at 11:03pm
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He has no idea he would be disqualifying about 35% of the people. Fukking moronic shit!


And that's why the Chief must be seen as a transparently foolish clown!

Obviously, you failed the Voter Proficiency Quiz.

So emotional.  Boo hoo.  Cry   

Jeff wrote on Jan 8th, 2018 at 2:29pm:
You aren't in charge of designing the test or selecting the questions.

I was responding to Don_G's challenge to offer some possible questions for the VPQ.  I never claimed to have the authority to select the questions.

Jeff wrote on Jan 8th, 2018 at 2:29pm:
How will you prevent the first question from being "Is health care a right?" and the 'correct' answer from being "Yes"?

I can't prevent that. Nor would I want to.  The Voter Proficiency Quiz would be based in civics-based topics - not touchy-feely issues such as health-care rights.  Let Chuck and Nancy dabble in those sorts of things, if they are so inclined.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Universal Suffrage a Hinderance to Libertarianism?
Reply #27 - Jan 9th, 2018 at 7:28am
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SkyChief wrote on Jan 8th, 2018 at 11:03pm:
The Voter Proficiency Quiz would be based in civics-based topics - not touchy-feely issues such as health-care rights.
Maybe it would be if you were in charge, but you aren't.


  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: Universal Suffrage a Hinderance to Libertarianism?
Reply #28 - Jan 9th, 2018 at 9:09am
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The Opposition wrote on Jan 8th, 2018 at 10:22pm:
Surely you understand that you have a serious perspective issue here. To an intellect like mine, normal people are unfit to make their own decisions or to vote, and I see them duped into voting for policies that not only hurt them but everyone, and I see them tweaking out on lottery tickets.

I won't advocate that their right to vote, or to choose, be taken away, no matter how unfit they are. They're also people. And in being people, under the rule of the government, they have a legit share in how it's operated, exactly the same as you or me.

Imagine you share a car with a baby. The baby owns half, and you own half. You've driven some. Now the baby wants to drive. This is how I see the entire world, all the time. This is why my instinct leans authoritarian.

I ignore my instinct and support liberty, because, although ruinous, it is also right.


Your instinct not to let the baby drive is the instinct you should follow.  I don't care if the baby owns half, three fourths or one hundred percent of the car, I'm not letting him drive or have a say in how I drive.

More to the point, allowing people who have demonstrated that their desire is not freedom, but dependency to vote themselves more freebies at my expense, doesn't protect anyone's freedom unless you mean the "freedom" to steal.




  

"I think I'll backtrack." - Jeff
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Jeff
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Re: Universal Suffrage a Hinderance to Libertarianism?
Reply #29 - Jan 9th, 2018 at 10:13am
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Snarky Sack wrote on Jan 9th, 2018 at 9:09am:
Your instinct not to let the baby drive is the instinct you should follow.  I don't care if the baby owns half, three fourths or one hundred percent of the car, I'm not letting him drive or have a say in how I drive.

More to the point, allowing people who have demonstrated that their desire is not freedom, but dependency to vote themselves more freebies at my expense, doesn't protect anyone's freedom unless you mean the "freedom" to steal.




The real problem is government thinking it has been authorized to redistribute wealth.

People are corrupted by power, and even if we could somehow fill Congress with libertarians, they are still people, and the temptation for them to play the-power-equals-personal wealth game is still there, as long as there is a supposed power to reward some people by stealing from others.
  
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