Libertarian's Forum
Libertarian Forum to discuss politics and free market economics.
Libertarian's ForumLibertarian's ForumFreedom Forum › Universal Suffrage a Hinderance to Libertarianism?
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 7 Send TopicPrint
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Universal Suffrage a Hinderance to Libertarianism? (Read 1557 times)
Snarky Sack
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 4194
Location: Republic of Me
Joined: Sep 11th, 2017
Universal Suffrage a Hinderance to Libertarianism?
Jan 6th, 2018 at 9:40pm
Print Post  
First of all, there is no universal suffrage.  All nations, including the United States and all fifty states, have restrictions on who may vote.  When I was fifteen, I got my first on-the-books job and paid income taxes without representation until the 1980 elections.  Felons may not vote in nearly all states.  Non-citizens don't vote even though the pay the taxes and live under the government.  So the question is how to limit voter eligibility, not whether to limit it.  The answer is that it should be limited to those who are capable of selecting a government that is good, not a government that promises goodies. 

In the America of Washington, Lincoln and Madison, only white male landownders were allowed to vote.  Obviously, the white male part was horribly wrong even if some say it was necessary to found the nation.  But the landowner part made some sense.  Why should the people who owned the nation not run the nation?

Except that we recognize that land ownership is itself a construct of government, so that wouldn't be the way to do it in modern times.  We could have a list of requirements and restrictions, just as we do now, but with an eye to electing governments that don't see themselves as armed collectors for forced charities.

Some requirements might be, a high school diploma or equivalent, passing the citizenship test given to immigrants, an IQ above 90, a job or means of support, military service or some other public service, ownership of land, operation of a business, some indication that one has skin in the game and won't see success as coming from government generosity.  Maybe come up with a menu of five or so requirements and one can vote if they meet three of them.

Some limits might be no welfare dolees, no government contractors, no dual citizens, no insane people.

Sounds un-American, I know.  But if we keep letting people vote themselves money from the public treasury once every two years as a substitute for working five days a week, we can hardly expect them to ever vote for libertarianism.


 
  

"I think I'll backtrack." - Jeff
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Don_G
Ex Member


Re: Universal Suffrage a Hinderance to Libertarianism?
Reply #1 - Jan 6th, 2018 at 11:52pm
Print Post  
Snarky Sack wrote on Jan 6th, 2018 at 9:40pm:
First of all, there is no universal suffrage.  All nations, including the United States and all fifty states, have restrictions on who may vote.  When I was fifteen, I got my first on-the-books job and paid income taxes without representation until the 1980 elections.  Felons may not vote in nearly all states.  Non-citizens don't vote even though the pay the taxes and live under the government.  So the question is how to limit voter eligibility, not whether to limit it.  The answer is that it should be limited to those who are capable of selecting a government that is good, not a government that promises goodies. 

In the America of Washington, Lincoln and Madison, only white male landownders were allowed to vote.  Obviously, the white male part was horribly wrong even if some say it was necessary to found the nation.  But the landowner part made some sense.  Why should the people who owned the nation not run the nation?

Except that we recognize that land ownership is itself a construct of government, so that wouldn't be the way to do it in modern times.  We could have a list of requirements and restrictions, just as we do now, but with an eye to electing governments that don't see themselves as armed collectors for forced charities.

Some requirements might be, a high school diploma or equivalent, passing the citizenship test given to immigrants, an IQ above 90, a job or means of support, military service or some other public service, ownership of land, operation of a business, some indication that one has skin in the game and won't see success as coming from government generosity.  Maybe come up with a menu of five or so requirements and one can vote if they meet three of them.

Some limits might be no welfare dolees, no government contractors, no dual citizens, no insane people.

Sounds un-American, I know.  But if we keep letting people vote themselves money from the public treasury once every two years as a substitute for working five days a week, we can hardly expect them to ever vote for libertarianism.


 


This has to be a joke. But now we know burnsred's true disposition.

Heil Hitler!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 35562
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Universal Suffrage a Hinderance to Libertarianism?
Reply #2 - Jan 7th, 2018 at 7:54am
Print Post  
Snarky Sack wrote on Jan 6th, 2018 at 9:40pm:
First of all, there is no universal suffrage.  All nations, including the United States and all fifty states, have restrictions on who may vote.  When I was fifteen, I got my first on-the-books job and paid income taxes without representation until the 1980 elections.  Felons may not vote in nearly all states.  Non-citizens don't vote even though the pay the taxes and live under the government.  So the question is how to limit voter eligibility, not whether to limit it.  The answer is that it should be limited to those who are capable of selecting a government that is good, not a government that promises goodies. 

In the America of Washington, Lincoln and Madison, only white male landownders were allowed to vote.  Obviously, the white male part was horribly wrong even if some say it was necessary to found the nation.  But the landowner part made some sense.  Why should the people who owned the nation not run the nation?

Except that we recognize that land ownership is itself a construct of government, so that wouldn't be the way to do it in modern times.  We could have a list of requirements and restrictions, just as we do now, but with an eye to electing governments that don't see themselves as armed collectors for forced charities.

Some requirements might be, a high school diploma or equivalent, passing the citizenship test given to immigrants, an IQ above 90, a job or means of support, military service or some other public service, ownership of land, operation of a business, some indication that one has skin in the game and won't see success as coming from government generosity.  Maybe come up with a menu of five or so requirements and one can vote if they meet three of them.

Some limits might be no welfare dolees, no government contractors, no dual citizens, no insane people.

Sounds un-American, I know.  But if we keep letting people vote themselves money from the public treasury once every two years as a substitute for working five days a week, we can hardly expect them to ever vote for libertarianism.


 
As you might remember, my idea is to limit the vote to productive people, people who are supporting their own lives. That would give the vote to young people, as long as they were self supporting.

What I think universal suffrage is a hindrance to is good government, meaning a government that allows people to be free and keep the fruits of their labor.

Government is not "libertarian", but good government can protect and preserve individual Rights and Liberty.

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Don_G
Ex Member


Re: Universal Suffrage a Hinderance to Libertarianism?
Reply #3 - Jan 7th, 2018 at 12:51pm
Print Post  
Jeff wrote on Jan 7th, 2018 at 7:54am:
As you might remember, my idea is to limit the vote to productive people, people who are supporting their own lives. That would give the vote to young people, as long as they were self supporting.

What I think universal suffrage is a hindrance to is good government, meaning a government that allows people to be free and keep the fruits of their labor.

Government is not "libertarian", but good government can protect and preserve individual Rights and Liberty.



I certainly want to believe you're serious about disenfranchizing all the people with an IQ below 90, but I can't get there.

So the best I can do is encourage some heartfelt discussions on the idea.

Libertarians are not quite that evil are they Jeff?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
SkyChief
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 7899
Location: California Coast
Joined: Aug 18th, 2014
Re: Universal Suffrage a Hinderance to Libertarianism?
Reply #4 - Jan 7th, 2018 at 1:13pm
Print Post  
Snarky Sack wrote on Jan 6th, 2018 at 9:40pm:
  So the question is how to limit voter eligibility, not whether to limit it. 

A simple Voter Proficiency Quiz.  Everyone gets to cast a ballot, but only the ballots with the correct quiz answers are counted.

An informed electorate is a good electorate.  Smiley
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Don_G
Ex Member


Re: Universal Suffrage a Hinderance to Libertarianism?
Reply #5 - Jan 7th, 2018 at 1:20pm
Print Post  
SkyChief wrote on Jan 7th, 2018 at 1:13pm:
A simple Voter Proficiency Quiz.  Everyone gets to cast a ballot, but only the ballots with the correct quiz answers are counted.

An informed electorate is a good electorate.  Smiley


I've never doubted your sincerity on the idea of disenfranchizing all the people who you consider not as smart as you are. That's the key isn't it! I think you are on shaky ground by getting anywhere near about 100.

But I can't quite get to believing Jeff. You probably do though because of your being a pretty dim bulb.

In any case, the LP will never go there. They would be counting out 3/4's of their vote.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
SkyChief
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 7899
Location: California Coast
Joined: Aug 18th, 2014
Re: Universal Suffrage a Hinderance to Libertarianism?
Reply #6 - Jan 7th, 2018 at 1:35pm
Print Post  
Quote:
I've never doubted your sincerity on the idea of disenfranchizing all the people who you consider not as smart as you are. That's the key isn't it! I think you are on shaky ground by getting anywhere near about 100.

The VPQ (Voter Proficiency Quiz) is presented on the ballot itself.  It's just 3 or 4 simple questions about civics.  There are no surprise or "gotcha" questions because each voter knows what the questions will be before he/she went to the polls.

All VPQ questions are included in the voter's Sample Ballot!  So every voter would have weeks (months?) to research the answers at their leisure.

No disenfranchizement here.  Smiley
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Don_G
Ex Member


Re: Universal Suffrage a Hinderance to Libertarianism?
Reply #7 - Jan 7th, 2018 at 1:48pm
Print Post  
SkyChief wrote on Jan 7th, 2018 at 1:35pm:
The VPQ (Voter Proficiency Quiz) is presented on the ballot itself.  It's just 3 or 4 simple questions about civics.  There are no surprise or "gotcha" questions because each voter knows what the questions will be before he/she went to the polls.

All VPQ questions are included in the voter's Sample Ballot!  So every voter would have weeks (months?) to research the answers at their leisure.

No disenfranchizement here.  Smiley


Sure! I'll entertain a discussion with you when you raise an interesting idea. So if you don't have the 4 questions already formulated, take some time to do so. I would love to see what your qualification demands would be.

Anyway, good work because this is really getting down to where the rubber meets the road on libertarian politics.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
SkyChief
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 7899
Location: California Coast
Joined: Aug 18th, 2014
Re: Universal Suffrage a Hinderance to Libertarianism?
Reply #8 - Jan 7th, 2018 at 2:22pm
Print Post  
Quote:
Sure! I'll entertain a discussion with you when you raise an interesting idea. So if you don't have the 4 questions already formulated, take some time to do so. I would love to see what your qualification demands would be.

here are some possible VPQ questions:

What are the 3 branches of government?

a)  Legislative, Judicial, and Financial
b)  Financial, Labor, and Entitlements
c)  Legislative, Executive, and Judicial
d)  Energy, Trade, and Foreign Affairs

What are the functions of Congress?

a)  Allocate Taxes and Confirm jurists of the Supreme Court
b)  Oversee the House of Representatives and suggest replacements.
c)  Make Laws and conduct investigations to oversee the Executive Branch.
d)  Oversee the IRS and Protect the Bill of Rights.

The reason(s) we have Income Tax is to:

a) distribute Wealth equally among all Americans.
b) provide Foreign Aid to underdeveloped countries.
c) fund essential Federal Government operation, and Infrastructure.
d) provide housing and supplemental medical care for the underpriveleged.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Don_G
Ex Member


Re: Universal Suffrage a Hinderance to Libertarianism?
Reply #9 - Jan 7th, 2018 at 2:49pm
Print Post  
SkyChief wrote on Jan 7th, 2018 at 2:22pm:
here are some possible VPQ questions:

What are the 3 branches of government?

a)  Legislative, Judicial, and Financial
b)  Financial, Labor, and Entitlements
c)  Legislative, Executive, and Judicial
d)  Energy, Trade, and Foreign Affairs

What are the functions of Congress?

a)  Allocate Taxes and Confirm jurists of the Supreme Court
b)  Oversee the House of Representatives and suggest replacements.
c)  Make Laws and conduct investigations to oversee the Executive Branch.
d)  Oversee the IRS and Protect the Bill of Rights.

The reason(s) we have Income Tax is to:

a) distribute Wealth equally among all Americans.
b) provide Foreign Aid to underdeveloped countries.
c) fund essential Federal Government operation, and Infrastructure.
d) provide housing and supplemental medical care for the underpriveleged.


Take this as a legitimate question and not sarcasm. What are your choices for the right answers in those three examples?

And also if you don't mind, where did you get the questions? I'm supposing you made them up yourself because I see some spelling mistakes.

The first question is obviously 'c'. But the second question is loaded with political biased ideology and would never do because of divided opinions. You would have to be demanding that your political opinion is accepted as right and other opinions not possibly being acceptable.

How crass and shallow of you to assume you could judge a person's IQ on those sort of questions. Excepting perhaps the first question? With some qualifications!

Now I'm sure I've wasted my time with entertaining this notion you and your libertarian cohorts have concocted. What a sad and disgusting example of your complete ignorance!

In your stupidity you have unveiled your dishonest motive.

It couldn't be more obvious that you don't want to limit voting by putting a lower limit on intelligence. You want to disenfranchize voters based on a political ideology you have invented to suit your politics.

Man oh man, I could have never imagined you could discredit your worthless hide in so completely in so few words! 
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 7
Send TopicPrint
 
Libertarian's ForumLibertarian's ForumFreedom Forum › Universal Suffrage a Hinderance to Libertarianism?
Libertarian's Forum

Libertarian's Forum Information Rules, Agreement and Privacy Policy