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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) The Ninth Circuit Ruling on DACA Shows America is a Judiocracy (Read 228 times)
Jeff
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Re: The Ninth Circuit Ruling on DACA Shows America is a Judiocracy
Reply #10 - Jan 12th, 2018 at 7:54am
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burnsred wrote on Jan 11th, 2018 at 9:18pm:
We have to fight against judicial activism even when it does get us something we want politically.  If we believe in democracy that it. 


Libertarians understand that democracy is a dangerous method of government that will doom any nation that uses it.

What do you mean when you say "judicial activism"?

Do you think the courts should defer to the legislature, or strike down laws that violate rights or exceed the grant of power to the legislature?

Some Justices and legal scholars think that striking down any law is "judicial activism"...

Is that how you use the phrase?

I think it is, since you tie it to the preservation of "democracy" by which you are likely to mean that people who have been elected, even if by a sham of democratic processes, have the peoples' granted permission to do anything at all, to pass any laws with no regard to the Constitution or the Rights of people, because "democracy".


  
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Re: The Ninth Circuit Ruling on DACA Shows America is a Judiocracy
Reply #11 - Jan 12th, 2018 at 8:24am
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Jeff wrote on Jan 12th, 2018 at 7:54am:
Libertarians understand that democracy is a dangerous method of government that will doom any nation that uses it.

What do you mean when you say "judicial activism"?

Do you think the courts should defer to the legislature, or strike down laws that violate rights or exceed the grant of power to the legislature?

Some Justices and legal scholars think that striking down any law is "judicial activism"...

Is that how you use the phrase?



Good questions.  Before I answer a question like that, I go straight to the source, the Constitution of the United States.  Turning to the clause that gives the courts the power to declare laws passed by congress or executive actions by the president unconstitutional and to force their reversal I see that . . .

Hm . . . I can't seem to find that clause.  Can you remind me where it is?

Quote:
I think it is, since you tie it to the preservation of "democracy" by which you are likely to mean that people who have been elected, even if by a sham of democratic processes, have the peoples' granted permission to do anything at all, to pass any laws with no regard to the Constitution or the Rights of people, because "democracy".


Yes, I have criticized the process of democracy as a path to libertarianism on this very forum.  I even started a thread about it.  Needless to say I was lambasted for not worshiping the concept of democracy.  But the same people who think democracy is so important just yawn when the courts declare themselves to be the final arbiters of what elected officials can and cannot do.

The reason is that most people don't really want democracy, they want their programs and policies to be enacted and for programs and policies they don't like to not be enacted.
  
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Re: The Ninth Circuit Ruling on DACA Shows America is a Judiocracy
Reply #12 - Jan 12th, 2018 at 8:29am
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burnsred wrote on Jan 12th, 2018 at 8:24am:
Good questions.  Before I answer a question like that, I go straight to the source, the Constitution of the United States.  Turning to the clause that gives the courts the power to declare laws passed by congress or executive actions by the president unconstitutional and to force their reversal I see that . . .

Hm . . . I can't seem to find that clause.  Can you remind me where it is?



Article III, Sect. 2.
  
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Re: The Ninth Circuit Ruling on DACA Shows America is a Judiocracy
Reply #13 - Jan 12th, 2018 at 8:36am
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burnsred wrote on Jan 12th, 2018 at 8:24am:
But the same people who think democracy is so important just yawn when the courts declare themselves to be the final arbiters of what elected officials can and cannot do.
Elected officials cannot exceed the power they have been granted by the Constitution.

Do you agree?

Disagreements about what power has been granted and which branch of government it has been granted to fall under the jurisdiction of the Supreme Court. Its a power granted to the Court by the Constitution.

Matters of interpretation must be referred to the people.

Federalist No. 49: Madison
           "As the people are the only legitimate fountain of power, and it is from them that the constitutional charter, under which the several branches of government hold their power is derived, it seems strictly consonant to the republican theory to recur to the same original authority, not only whenever it may be necessary to enlarge, diminish, or new-model the powers of government, but also whenever one of the departments may commit encroachments on the chartered authorities of the others. The several departments being perfectly co-ordinate by the terms of their common commission, neither of them, it is evident, can pretend to an exclusive or superior right of settling the boundaries between their respective powers; and how are the encroachments or the stronger to be prevented, or the wrongs of the weaker to be redressed, without an appeal to the people themselves, who, as the grantors of the commission, can alone declare its true meaning, and enforce its observance?"


  
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Re: The Ninth Circuit Ruling on DACA Shows America is a Judiocracy
Reply #14 - Jan 12th, 2018 at 10:58am
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Jeff wrote on Jan 12th, 2018 at 8:36am:
Elected officials cannot exceed the power they have been granted by the Constitution.

Do you agree?
Yes.  The voters must react harshly if they try.

Quote:
Disagreements about what power has been granted and which branch of government it has been granted to fall under the jurisdiction of the Supreme Court. Its a power granted to the Court by the Constitution.


Where?

Quote:
Matters of interpretation must be referred to the people.

Federalist No. 49: Madison
           "As the people are the only legitimate fountain of power, and it is from them that the constitutional charter, under which the several branches of government hold their power is derived, it seems strictly consonant to the republican theory to recur to the same original authority, not only whenever it may be necessary to enlarge, diminish, or new-model the powers of government, but also whenever one of the departments may commit encroachments on the chartered authorities of the others. The several departments being perfectly co-ordinate by the terms of their common commission, neither of them, it is evident, can pretend to an exclusive or superior right of settling the boundaries between their respective powers; and how are the encroachments or the stronger to be prevented, or the wrongs of the weaker to be redressed, without an appeal to the people themselves, who, as the grantors of the commission, can alone declare its true meaning, and enforce its observance?"




So, which is it?  The USSC or the people?

  
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Re: The Ninth Circuit Ruling on DACA Shows America is a Judiocracy
Reply #15 - Jan 12th, 2018 at 11:01am
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Jeff wrote on Jan 12th, 2018 at 8:29am:
Article III, Sect. 2.


Doesn't say anything about that.

If it does, quote the words that grant that power.


  
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Re: The Ninth Circuit Ruling on DACA Shows America is a Judiocracy
Reply #16 - Jan 12th, 2018 at 12:34pm
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burnsred wrote on Jan 12th, 2018 at 11:01am:
Doesn't say anything about that.

If it does, quote the words that grant that power.


The judicial power shall extend to all cases arising under the Constitution.

A dispute about whether the Congress or the Executive has the power to legislate would be a case under the Constitution, just for example.
  
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Re: The Ninth Circuit Ruling on DACA Shows America is a Judiocracy
Reply #17 - Jan 12th, 2018 at 12:36pm
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burnsred wrote on Jan 12th, 2018 at 10:58am:
So, which is it?  The USSC or the people?

According to the Founders who talked about it, questions of meaning and interpretation must be referred to the people.

What is meant by the power to "regulate commerce" would be a matter of interpretation.
  
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Re: The Ninth Circuit Ruling on DACA Shows America is a Judiocracy
Reply #18 - Jan 12th, 2018 at 12:53pm
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Jeff wrote on Jan 12th, 2018 at 7:54am:
Libertarians understand that democracy is a dangerous method of government that will doom any nation that uses it.

Every form of government has the seeds of its on undoing sewn into it from the start. 

Monarchies eventually produce and an incompetent dictator with no checks on their power.

Aristocracies fall to infighting among the inbred elites.

Democracy fails fails when the demos realize they can just vote themselves more stuff.
  
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Re: The Ninth Circuit Ruling on DACA Shows America is a Judiocracy
Reply #19 - Jan 12th, 2018 at 12:53pm
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Jeff wrote on Jan 12th, 2018 at 12:36pm:
According to the Founders who talked about it, questions of meaning and interpretation must be referred to the people.



Then it would be the people, not the 9th circuit, who should decide whether Trump has the right to end DACA.


  
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