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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Trump Should Raise the Stakes in DACA Negotiations (Read 700 times)
SnarkySack
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Re: Trump Should Raise the Stakes in DACA Negotiations
Reply #10 - Jan 12th, 2018 at 1:08pm
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Don_G wrote on Jan 12th, 2018 at 1:01pm:
You're not making the connection between the extremism you speak and anarchist principles.


I never claimed there was a connection between my views and anarchism.  How could there be, when I want a government that protects individuals from the initiation of force?


  

I used to be burnsred . . .
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Don_G
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Re: Trump Should Raise the Stakes in DACA Negotiations
Reply #11 - Jan 12th, 2018 at 1:16pm
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SnarkySack wrote on Jan 12th, 2018 at 1:08pm:
I never claimed there was a connection between my views and anarchism.  How could there be, when I want a government that protects individuals from the initiation of force?




I didn't suggest that you said it, I suggested that you've made it clear that you do support the libertarian extreme of anarchy.

Now even your words are convoluted:

Quote:
I want a government that protects individuals from the initiation of force?


You mean: You don't want a government that protects individuals, you want a government that doesn't interfere with individuals and their rights.

Jeff's argument is the opposite of what you declare to be your goal of no government which equals anarchy.
  
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SnarkySack
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Re: Trump Should Raise the Stakes in DACA Negotiations
Reply #12 - Jan 12th, 2018 at 1:39pm
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Don_G wrote on Jan 12th, 2018 at 1:16pm:
I didn't suggest that you said it, I suggested that you've made it clear that you do support the libertarian extreme of anarchy.

Now even your words are convoluted:


You mean: You don't want a government that protects individuals, you want a government that doesn't interfere with individuals and their rights.
No, I want both.

  

I used to be burnsred . . .
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Don_G
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Re: Trump Should Raise the Stakes in DACA Negotiations
Reply #13 - Jan 12th, 2018 at 1:44pm
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SnarkySack wrote on Jan 12th, 2018 at 1:39pm:
No, I want both.



I'm more interested in hearing you condemn Trump or support Trump on his 'shithole' words.

I'm expecting you'll try to fawn it off as something in the middle.

Fwiw, the Chief is out as supporting it.
  
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Billie
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Re: Trump Should Raise the Stakes in DACA Negotiations
Reply #14 - Jan 12th, 2018 at 2:11pm
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SnarkySack wrote on Jan 12th, 2018 at 1:08pm:
I never claimed there was a connection between my views and anarchism.  How could there be, when I want a government that protects individuals from the initiation of force?


Your government plan is OK, but your method of funding it is a disproved fantasy.

No matter. The U.S. will never have a government that is funded voluntarily.
  
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Don_G
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Re: Trump Should Raise the Stakes in DACA Negotiations
Reply #15 - Jan 12th, 2018 at 2:14pm
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Billie wrote on Jan 12th, 2018 at 2:11pm:
Your government plan is OK, but your method of funding it is a disproved fantasy.

No matter. The U.S. will never have a government that is funded voluntarily.


Excellent point! You got him for me on that one sweet ass. Oh how sweet!
  
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Billie
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Re: Trump Should Raise the Stakes in DACA Negotiations
Reply #16 - Jan 12th, 2018 at 2:17pm
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Don_G wrote on Jan 12th, 2018 at 1:16pm:
You mean: You don't want a government that protects individuals, you want a government that doesn't interfere with individuals and their rights.

Jeff's argument is the opposite of what you declare to be your goal of no government which equals anarchy.
A government such as the one designed by our Constitution has no power to interfere with individuals or their rights beyond a few enumerated and limited powers such as legal taxation, jury duty and potential conscription, all of which are designed and intended to preserve the government so it can protect people and their rights, except juries, which are intended as a protection against the government.

Does that sound like an odd idea, forcing people to serve on juries in order to protect the people against the government? What sort of government would do that, intentionally require citizens to sit in judgement on the governments prosecutions?
  
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Don_G
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Re: Trump Should Raise the Stakes in DACA Negotiations
Reply #17 - Jan 12th, 2018 at 2:26pm
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Billie wrote on Jan 12th, 2018 at 2:17pm:
A government such as the one designed by our Constitution has no power to interfere with individuals or their rights beyond a few enumerated and limited powers such as legal taxation, jury duty and potential conscription, all of which are designed and intended to preserve the government so it can protect people and their rights, except juries, which are intended as a protection against the government.

Does that sound like an odd idea, forcing people to serve on juries in order to protect the people against the government? What sort of government would do that, intentionally require citizens to sit in judgement on the governments prosecutions?


The onus isn't on me to find an alternative. But there is one in some countries. Maybe even yours?

I can choose a judge or a judge and jury. Does that speak to your complaint?

I'm always willing to express my POV with you if you're willing to stand your ground and not resort to sarcasm.
  
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Billie
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Re: Trump Should Raise the Stakes in DACA Negotiations
Reply #18 - Jan 12th, 2018 at 2:31pm
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Don_G wrote on Jan 12th, 2018 at 2:26pm:
The onus isn't on me to find an alternative. But there is one in some countries. Maybe even yours?

I can choose a judge or a judge and jury. Does that speak to your complaint?


People signing contracts in the U.S. can agree to arbitration if disagreements arise.

People that have been accused of a crime and arrested by the government have a right to be judged by a jury, but they can waive that right and just let a judge decide.

I'm not looking for an alternative to that.
  
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Don_G
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Re: Trump Should Raise the Stakes in DACA Negotiations
Reply #19 - Jan 12th, 2018 at 2:37pm
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Billie wrote on Jan 12th, 2018 at 2:31pm:
People signing contracts in the U.S. can agree to arbitration if disagreements arise.

People that have been accused of a crime and arrested by the government have a right to be judged by a jury, but they can waive that right and just let a judge decide.

I'm not looking for an alternative to that.


Thank you.

Then I'm missing the point you're trying to make.

As to signing a contract and 'maybe' be subject to arbitration? In Canada it's not maybe, it's a legal matter.

I think you were saying that they could choose arbitration of some sort? Government arbitration? In labour law an arbitrator but that's the only other example I'm aware of.
  
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