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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Trump Should Raise the Stakes in DACA Negotiations (Read 704 times)
SnarkySack
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Trump Should Raise the Stakes in DACA Negotiations
Jan 11th, 2018 at 4:03pm
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Instead of offering amnesty to 35 year-old "children" via a DREAM act, he should offer it to everyone in the country illegally right now.  But in return, the wall will be built and Dems will fully support border security and stop using the courts to prevent Trump from keeping dangerous foreigners out of the U.S.

The Dems will never agree to it, because they love open borders much more than they love illegals already here. 

The voters would see how much the Dems rely on votes from foreigners as well as campaign cash from foreigners.  Ask one hundred voters how many relatives a DACA recipient should be allowed to bring to the U.S. via chain migration and the most frequent answer will be "Pfff!.  Zero, of course."  The Dems and Reps hatred for Trump is a very thinly veiled disdain for the voters.  The sooner the voters understand that, the better.
  

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Billie
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Re: Trump Should Raise the Stakes in DACA Negotiations
Reply #1 - Jan 11th, 2018 at 5:24pm
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This idea is strange to me, that our legitimate government should be operated by negotiations...
I think that tribalism has infested our governments. They have grown far too large and disconnected and autonomous, and they are fighting each other for power.

Right now, they are "negotiating"... Do you think they will start shooting at each other? They all have SWAT teams and para-military police. They seem to be everywhere...

Which would be the worse scenario, for all those SWAT people to start shooting each other, or for all of them to get together and say "Heil" Whoever? Heil The Donald doesn't flow... Even Heil Oprah would work better in mass rallies... If such things were permitted of course.

Edit: Sorry, it's actually only the Executive branch that has all the SWAT teams and armies.

Congress and the Courts don't have any.

That means the Executive will become King... and the Courts and Congress will be puppets.

Probably the King will be a figurehead. Hopefully the King's Court will poison each other and torture each other to death before they have time to inbreed too much again.
  
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SnarkySack
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Re: Trump Should Raise the Stakes in DACA Negotiations
Reply #2 - Jan 11th, 2018 at 9:29pm
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Billie wrote on Jan 11th, 2018 at 5:24pm:
This idea is strange to me, that our legitimate government should be operated by negotiations...


As long as we allow our government to rob us at gunpoint instead of having to earn our fees for their services, then of course there will be negotiations over how to spend the loot.  That's because there is begrudging respect, if not honor, among thieves.  The gang that robs us need each other to keep the mass robbery going, so they will give and take to make each other happy.
   
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I think that tribalism has infested our governments. They have grown far too large and disconnected and autonomous, and they are fighting each other for power.

Right now, they are "negotiating"... Do you think they will start shooting at each other? They all have SWAT teams and para-military police. They seem to be everywhere...

Which would be the worse scenario, for all those SWAT people to start shooting each other, or for all of them to get together and say "Heil" Whoever? Heil The Donald doesn't flow... Even Heil Oprah would work better in mass rallies... If such things were permitted of course.

Edit: Sorry, it's actually only the Executive branch that has all the SWAT teams and armies.

Congress and the Courts don't have any.

That means the Executive will become King... and the Courts and Congress will be puppets.

Probably the King will be a figurehead. Hopefully the King's Court will poison each other and torture each other to death before they have time to inbreed too much again.


I wonder whether agencies are part of the executive branch anymore.  I know they technically are, but now that there is a president in the White House they don't approve of, they seem to have gone rogue. 

During the latter years of the Obama administration, I was shocked at how openly agency heads defied congress's attempts to conduct oversight by withholding information and defying attempt to question them in congressional hearings.  I was shocked that congress didn't slap them with subpeonas and then contempt citations.  But I did expect that with a new president, new agency heads would force agencies to become servants to the people once again. 

Apparently not.  The "deep state" is still winning because Trump (and everyone else, it seems) underestimated how deeply they had burrowed into what we thought of as a listless bureaucracy. 
  

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Billie
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Re: Trump Should Raise the Stakes in DACA Negotiations
Reply #3 - Jan 12th, 2018 at 8:23am
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SnarkySack wrote on Jan 11th, 2018 at 9:29pm:
As long as we allow our government to rob us at gunpoint instead of having to earn our fees for their services, then of course there will be negotiations over how to spend the loot.

Yes, I know, you think all taxation is theft.
I disagree, in part because I fear anarchy, but also because I can see that holding the taxing power to it's limits would severely limit revenue, and holding Congress to it's enumerated powers would hugely reduce spending. 

I know, anarchists always maintain that laws are useless because people break them, and what we should do is abolish law.
  
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Billie
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Re: Trump Should Raise the Stakes in DACA Negotiations
Reply #4 - Jan 12th, 2018 at 8:27am
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SnarkySack wrote on Jan 11th, 2018 at 9:29pm:
I wonder whether agencies are part of the executive branch anymore.  I know they technically are, but now that there is a president in the White House they don't approve of, they seem to have gone rogue. 


They have reverted to tribalism. There are too many of them, they are far too large, and they have almost complete autonomy and virtually automatic funding.

You seem to think that Executive branch agencies are independent advocates for "progressive" tyranny, and I pretty much agree.

It's another compelling reason to get rid of those not authorized by the Constitution.
  
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SnarkySack
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Re: Trump Should Raise the Stakes in DACA Negotiations
Reply #5 - Jan 12th, 2018 at 8:28am
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Billie wrote on Jan 12th, 2018 at 8:23am:
Yes, I know, you think all taxation is theft.
I disagree, in part because I fear anarchy, but also because I can see that holding the taxing power to it's limits would severely limit revenue, and holding Congress to it's enumerated powers would hugely reduce spending. 

I know, anarchists always maintain that laws are useless because people break them, and what we should do is abolish law.


Is that what they say?  You know far more about anarchists than I.

You disagree that taxation is theft because you see the positive benefits of taxation?  I see them too, especially in the fantasy limited government you describe. 

If a guy had a severely ill child, there would be a positive benefit to his robbing a bank to get the money for the best treatment for her. Especially if he were somewhere like Canada and the stolen money would help him get her to the U.S. instead of dying on a waiting list.  But the good he would do with the money would not render the theft a non-theft.

You could argue the morality of stealing rather than letting his child die, but you can't say it wouldn't be theft.
  

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Billie
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Re: Trump Should Raise the Stakes in DACA Negotiations
Reply #6 - Jan 12th, 2018 at 8:41am
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SnarkySack wrote on Jan 12th, 2018 at 8:28am:
Is that what they say?  You know far more about anarchists than I.

You disagree that taxation is theft because you see the positive benefits of taxation?  I see them too, especially in the fantasy limited government you describe. 


Yes, it's exactly what anarchists say. How can you not know that?

Limited government as designed by the U.S. Constitution, working as the drafters of the Constitution described it, was not a fantasy, but rather was mostly realized until the "progressives" illegally altered our form of government. Even then, it mostly persisted as a reality until the "Great Society" plans were implemented.
  
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SnarkySack
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Re: Trump Should Raise the Stakes in DACA Negotiations
Reply #7 - Jan 12th, 2018 at 12:52pm
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Billie wrote on Jan 12th, 2018 at 8:41am:
Yes, it's exactly what anarchists say. How can you not know that?


I don't know that I've ever spoken to an anarchist in my life.  I'm sure I haven't read much writing by anarchists.  I never felt that particular school of thought was worth pursuing even as an intellectual exercise.

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Limited government as designed by the U.S. Constitution, working as the drafters of the Constitution described it, was not a fantasy, but rather was mostly realized until the "progressives" illegally altered our form of government. Even then, it mostly persisted as a reality until the "Great Society" plans were implemented.


When slaves were being returned from "free" states to the slave states they escaped from, I doubt they would have agreed that a limited government had been mostly realized. 

When northerners were being drafted into an army to be transported hundreds of miles from their homes and then kill and be killed by people they considered their own countrymen and when southerners were being burned out of their homes and having their crops destroyed by rampaging federal troops, I would guess that they wouldn't have felt the government was quite limited enough.


  

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Re: Trump Should Raise the Stakes in DACA Negotiations
Reply #8 - Jan 12th, 2018 at 12:57pm
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Billie wrote on Jan 12th, 2018 at 8:23am:
Yes, I know, you think all taxation is theft.
I disagree, in part because I fear anarchy, but also because I can see that holding the taxing power to it's limits would severely limit revenue, and holding Congress to it's enumerated powers would hugely reduce spending. 

I know, anarchists always maintain that laws are useless because people break them, and what we should do is abolish law.


Well said! At the risk of angering you by saying that we've found some agreement on the basics! So sweet!
  
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Don_G
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Re: Trump Should Raise the Stakes in DACA Negotiations
Reply #9 - Jan 12th, 2018 at 1:01pm
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SnarkySack wrote on Jan 12th, 2018 at 12:52pm:
I don't know that I've ever spoken to an anarchist in my life.  I'm sure I haven't read much writing by anarchists.  I never felt that particular school of thought was worth pursuing even as an intellectual exercise.


When slaves were being returned from "free" states to the slave states they escaped from, I doubt they would have agreed that a limited government had been mostly realized. 

When northerners were being drafted into an army to be transported hundreds of miles from their homes and then kill and be killed by people they considered their own countrymen and when southerners were being burned out of their homes and having their crops destroyed by rampaging federal troops, I would guess that they wouldn't have felt the government was quite limited enough.




You're not making the connection between the extremism you speak and anarchist principles.

And you're not movable away from any of your positions. Any forum can benefit with a person like you. You'll always be an extreme to resist.

Your post #3 says that which you want to deny.
  
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