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The Opposition
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Prove the Government is not a HOA
Jan 13th, 2018 at 2:28am
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The purest libertarians (AnCaps) believe the government is inherently illegitimate, but that voluntarily ceding a portion of your property to a HOA which can then enforce rules, is legitimate.

I propose that the property owners in America made this concession, and with the signing of the American Constitution, agreed to those rules in exactly the same form as a Home Owners' Association.

Potential Objection:

But not every American property owner signed!
Well, that would have been impractical. More than that, it should be considered that no one in the Past was thinking about government being illegitimate and HOAs being legitimate. Much like the Native Americans, who may have owned land without having a concept of owning land, simply by exercising and defending property rights, attention should be paid to whether or not the founding of America meets the criteria of being a voluntary endeavour. Were there people in America, at the time of the signing of the Constitution, who vehemently objected to the rules imposed to such a degree that they said the government was illegitimate? Or did they all expect to gain from the new arrangement? They didn't sign because they didn't think they needed to - no one at the time was thinking in terms of government being inherently illegitimate. If they thought it was necessary, they probably would have.

Does this mean Libertarianism = Constitutionalism?
Yeah, kind of. Since the American Constitution represents the scope of the ceded property rights, it's not a stretch to say that being a Constitutionalist American is being a Libertarian American.

However, sometimes HOAs become corrupt. Just like the government. Unfortunately, without intercession of a higher power, there's simply nothing to be done when this happens and the HOA takes liberties with its interpretations and thus oversteps its bounds. Those rules are theirs to interpret, not yours. If you didn't like that, you shouldn't have given up a share in your property to such an organisation.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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thermf5
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Re: Prove the Government is not a HOA
Reply #1 - Jan 13th, 2018 at 3:45am
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The Opposition wrote on Jan 13th, 2018 at 2:28am:
The purest libertarians (AnCaps) believe the government is inherently illegitimate, but that voluntarily ceding a portion of your property to a HOA which can then enforce rules, is legitimate.

I propose that the property owners in America made this concession, and with the signing of the American Constitution, agreed to those rules in exactly the same form as a Home Owners' Association.

Potential Objection:

But not every American property owner signed!
Well, that would have been impractical. More than that, it should be considered that no one in the Past was thinking about government being illegitimate and HOAs being legitimate. Much like the Native Americans, who may have owned land without having a concept of owning land, simply by exercising and defending property rights, attention should be paid to whether or not the founding of America meets the criteria of being a voluntary endeavour. Were there people in America, at the time of the signing of the Constitution, who vehemently objected to the rules imposed to such a degree that they said the government was illegitimate? Or did they all expect to gain from the new arrangement? They didn't sign because they didn't think they needed to - no one at the time was thinking in terms of government being inherently illegitimate. If they thought it was necessary, they probably would have.

Does this mean Libertarianism = Constitutionalism?
Yeah, kind of. Since the American Constitution represents the scope of the ceded property rights, it's not a stretch to say that being a Constitutionalist American is being a Libertarian American.

However, sometimes HOAs become corrupt. Just like the government. Unfortunately, without intercession of a higher power, there's simply nothing to be done when this happens and the HOA takes liberties with its interpretations and thus oversteps its bounds. Those rules are theirs to interpret, not yours. If you didn't like that, you shouldn't have given up a share in your property to such an organisation.

I think the HOA are a from of government and y'all know how I feel about them but the fact that people choose to be a part of an HOA and Leve when thay sell the perproty hoas don't have to exzit it's like working at a bad job u don't have to do it but u can Leve at any time
  
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thermf5
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Re: Prove the Government is not a HOA
Reply #2 - Jan 13th, 2018 at 4:02am
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Sorry dubbleposted by accident
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Prove the Government is not a HOA
Reply #3 - Jan 13th, 2018 at 4:17am
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thermf5 wrote on Jan 13th, 2018 at 3:45am:
hoas don't have to exzit it's like working at a bad job u don't have to do it but u can Leve at any time


Exactly! And libertarians think this is legit because the property owners gave the HOA a share of the property.

I think the original American property owners gave the American government a share of their property in the same way - by agreeing to the terms - making the government legitimate.

The Constitution says we the People. It represents an agreement by the People to live under these rules as spelt out by the Constitution.

It is no less legitimate than a HOA.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: Prove the Government is not a HOA
Reply #4 - Jan 13th, 2018 at 8:08am
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The Opposition wrote on Jan 13th, 2018 at 2:28am:
However, sometimes HOAs become corrupt. Just like the government. Unfortunately, without intercession of a higher power, there's simply nothing to be done when this happens and the HOA takes liberties with its interpretations and thus oversteps its bounds. Those rules are theirs to interpret, not yours. If you didn't like that, you shouldn't have given up a share in your property to such an organisation.
There are higher powers when it comes to HOAs. The law can be enforced if HOA boards are stealing or otherwise breaking laws... Is that what you meant by "corrupt"?
If you just mean that the HOA board is enforcing rules that homeowners have agreed to, that's their job.
Maybe you mean a new rule that some homeowners don't like?
I don't know how HOA agreementsĀ  deal with rule making after the fact... I wouldn't live under one anyway, but certainly not one that reserved the right to change the rules after I bought in.

Corruption in government should be dealt with through the law, using it to punish lawbreakers.
  
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