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Little Big Man
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I don’t understand libertarian opposition to income tax
Jan 19th, 2018 at 1:16pm
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Most of you hopefully know that I oppose all taxes. I oppose them because they require the initiation of force. Taking money at gunpoint his arm robbery, no matter who is doing it.

But if one  disagrees and believes that some government functions or all government functions are so important that it is acceptable to force people to pay, why specifically attack the idea of an income tax?

Given that one believes hypothetically that government has the “right“ to decide how much it “needs” and how much any given person should before  contribute toward those needs, then take it at gunpoint with no regard for my needs, an income tax seems as good a way as any to do it. Rather I would say no worse than any of the other taxes.

Personally I if I am to give half or more of what I earned to government as the average person does, I’d rather p 50% up front from each paycheck and know the rest is mine. That seems simpler than paying 30% plus 8% on everything I buy, except my car which is 5%, then 3% on my house, three dollars per day in tolls, etc. etc.

But most libertarians here seem to accept the concept of taxation but oppose income taxes. I’m all ears if someone can explain why that is.

*Cue little Donnie to hold his privates, bounce and down on his toes and say “you agree with me!“
  

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Don_G
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Re: I don’t understand libertarian opposition to income tax
Reply #1 - Jan 19th, 2018 at 1:45pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Jan 19th, 2018 at 1:16pm:
Most of you hopefully know that I oppose all taxes. I oppose them because they require the initiation of force. Taking money at gunpoint his arm robbery, no matter who is doing it.

But if one  disagrees and believes that some government functions or all government functions are so important that it is acceptable to force people to pay, why specifically attack the idea of an income tax?

Given that one believes hypothetically that government has the “right“ to decide how much it “needs” and how much any given person should before  contribute toward those needs, then take it at gunpoint with no regard for my needs, an income tax seems as good a way as any to do it. Rather I would say no worse than any of the other taxes.

Personally I if I am to give half or more of what I earned to government as the average person does, I’d rather p 50% up front from each paycheck and know the rest is mine. That seems simpler than paying 30% plus 8% on everything I buy, except my car which is 5%, then 3% on my house, three dollars per day in tolls, etc. etc.

But most libertarians here seem to accept the concept of taxation but oppose income taxes. I’m all ears if someone can explain why that is.



Thank you for writing this one for me. It's delightful!

I as a libertarian don't oppose all taxes and I don't specifically oppose income taxation. I find it the lesser of all the evils, if indeed all taxes are evils. For the purpose of this discussion, I'll say they are just that.

So why object to income taxation when it's the only way to make taxation apply to everyone?

But then, asking that question is just in fact ignoring the fact that you don't accept any form of taxation. And that leaves us up against a brick wall.

Would it be possible that you could accept taxation for the purpose of this discussion only?

Quote:
*Cue little Donnie to hold his privates, bounce and down on his toes and say “you agree with me!“


I get the way you're feeling now but I'm with you on trying to promote some dialogue between us in order to come to terms with your feelings. I too feel that we've left things up in the air and adrift.

Anyway, if any taxation is rational and necessary, I think that income tax is the only tax that can fulfill the need. None of the Chief's other ideas make any sense at all.
  
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ahhell
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Re: I don’t understand libertarian opposition to income tax
Reply #2 - Jan 19th, 2018 at 2:05pm
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I don't oppose income tax more than other forms of taxation.  Property tax is sorta worse in that it really means you don't actually own your property.   Stop paying the tax and you loose your house.   

Still taxes are theft but some are necessary regardless of the form they take.
  
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AlayneLeung
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Re: I don’t understand libertarian opposition to income tax
Reply #3 - Jan 19th, 2018 at 2:08pm
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I replied, on a few pages of topic of this link, ideas of taxes on "sins" that would theoretically be beneficial so that income taxes could be lessened.  My theory as to why libertarians oppose income taxes is:

1, they're scared that leftwingers want to tax the rich huge amounts and also scared that rightwingers don't care if financially struggling persons suffer from taxation;

2, that income taxation is diverting money from paying employees decent living wages;

3, that income taxation diverts money from expanding businesses to provide more decent living wages jobs and more products or more services;

4, that income taxation can be used to deter dissenting beliefs;

5, that income taxation can be used to impose a one size fits all policy and in extreme times martial law.

http://www.libertariansforum.com/cgi-bin/freedom/YaBB.pl?num=1477582917/0

Note that I would like the 16th Amendment amended so that income taxes can't tax more than:

*50% of any income greater than $20M a year;
*40% of any income $10M to $20M a year;
*30% of any income $100k to $10M a year;
*15% of any income $50k to $100k a year;
*0% of any income less than $50k a year.
(Yeah, I know it's kind of confusing but that's just a basic United States Federal Income Tax I'm recommending).
  
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Don_G
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Re: I don’t understand libertarian opposition to income tax
Reply #4 - Jan 19th, 2018 at 2:28pm
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ahhell wrote on Jan 19th, 2018 at 2:05pm:
I don't oppose income tax more than other forms of taxation.  Property tax is sorta worse in that it really means you don't actually own your property.   Stop paying the tax and you loose your house.   

Still taxes are theft but some are necessary regardless of the form they take.


Necessary is the key word. What's to argue? You obviously need the Chief to tell you why he thinks income taxation is so bad.
  
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Don_G
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Re: I don’t understand libertarian opposition to income tax
Reply #5 - Jan 19th, 2018 at 2:34pm
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AlayneLeung wrote on Jan 19th, 2018 at 2:08pm:
I replied, on a few pages of topic of this link, ideas of taxes on "sins" that would theoretically be beneficial so that income taxes could be lessened.  My theory as to why libertarians oppose income taxes is:

1, they're scared that leftwingers want to tax the rich huge amounts and also scared that rightwingers don't care if financially struggling persons suffer from taxation;

2, that income taxation is diverting money from paying employees decent living wages;

3, that income taxation diverts money from expanding businesses to provide more decent living wages jobs and more products or more services;

4, that income taxation can be used to deter dissenting beliefs;

5, that income taxation can be used to impose a one size fits all policy and in extreme times martial law.

http://www.libertariansforum.com/cgi-bin/freedom/YaBB.pl?num=1477582917/0

Note that I would like the 16th Amendment amended so that income taxes can't tax more than:

*50% of any income greater than $20M a year;
*40% of any income $10M to $20M a year;
*30% of any income $100k to $10M a year;
*15% of any income $50k to $100k a year;
*0% of any income less than $50k a year.
(Yeah, I know it's kind of confusing but that's just a basic United States Federal Income Tax I'm recommending).


That's very liberal of you! Stupid and ill-informed though and Oppo can tell you why. I would if I thought you were serious.
  
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AlayneLeung
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Re: I don’t understand libertarian opposition to income tax
Reply #6 - Jan 19th, 2018 at 2:35pm
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Don_G replied Quote:
You obviously need the Chief to tell you why he thinks income taxation is so bad.


You mean my 1 through 5 list above didn't explain why income taxation is so bad? 

Regarding my ideas as being very liberal, no they're sort of progressive.  Those income tax percentages could probably be less, but since you agreed with burnsred, I thought I'd post them.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: I don’t understand libertarian opposition to income tax
Reply #7 - Jan 19th, 2018 at 3:32pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Jan 19th, 2018 at 1:16pm:
But if one disagrees and believes that some government functions or all government functions are so important that it is acceptable to force people to pay, why specifically attack the idea of an income tax?

Given that one believes hypothetically that government has the “right“ to decide how much it “needs” and how much any given person should before  contribute toward those needs, then take it at gunpoint with no regard for my needs, an income tax seems as good a way as any to do it. Rather I would say no worse than any of the other taxes.


I liked the corpy even better. (And yes, I know it's corvee; I just like to butcher French words.)

However I think you have a good point. If we're assuming taxes and comparing types of taxes, I like an income tax because I like to think I can never have less.

With a property tax, I have to constantly make more with every additional piece of property I own, just to keep it. With an income tax, I don't have to think about taxes eventually eating all my property. The more I make, even if the government takes half, the more I make.

There's no moral argument here, just an explanation of why I prefer one tax to another. As you point out, they're all objectively theft.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Little Big Man
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Re: I don’t understand libertarian opposition to income tax
Reply #8 - Jan 19th, 2018 at 4:00pm
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Quote:
Thank you for writing this one for me. It's delightful!

I as a libertarian don't oppose all taxes and I don't specifically oppose income taxation. I find it the lesser of all the evils, if indeed all taxes are evils. For the purpose of this discussion, I'll say they are just that.

So why object to income taxation when it's the only way to make taxation apply to everyone?


That's absurd.  At least if you mean your country's income tax.  About half the "taxpayers" are getting "refundable tax credits" so taxation doesn't apply to them.  In fact the income tax system is just another welfare check for them.

Quote:
But then, asking that question is just in fact ignoring the fact that you don't accept any form of taxation. And that leaves us up against a brick wall.

Would it be possible that you could accept taxation for the purpose of this discussion only?


Yes, that's what I'm doing in this thread.  That's why I said, "Given that one believes hypothetically that government has the “right“ to decide how much it “needs” and how much any given person should before  contribute toward those needs, then take it at gunpoint with no regard for my needs . . . "

  

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Little Big Man
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Re: I don’t understand libertarian opposition to income tax
Reply #9 - Jan 19th, 2018 at 4:03pm
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AlayneLeung wrote on Jan 19th, 2018 at 2:08pm:
I replied, on a few pages of topic of this link, ideas of taxes on "sins" that would theoretically be beneficial so that income taxes could be lessened.  My theory as to why libertarians oppose income taxes is:

1, they're scared that leftwingers want to tax the rich huge amounts and also scared that rightwingers don't care if financially struggling persons suffer from taxation;

2, that income taxation is diverting money from paying employees decent living wages;

3, that income taxation diverts money from expanding businesses to provide more decent living wages jobs and more products or more services;

4, that income taxation can be used to deter dissenting beliefs;

5, that income taxation can be used to impose a one size fits all policy and in extreme times martial law.

http://www.libertariansforum.com/cgi-bin/freedom/YaBB.pl?num=1477582917/0

Note that I would like the 16th Amendment amended so that income taxes can't tax more than:

*50% of any income greater than $20M a year;
*40% of any income $10M to $20M a year;
*30% of any income $100k to $10M a year;
*15% of any income $50k to $100k a year;
*0% of any income less than $50k a year.
(Yeah, I know it's kind of confusing but that's just a basic United States Federal Income Tax I'm recommending).


Those are some good points about the income tax being a vehicle for other government mischief along with the armed robbery. Other taxes could be used the same way, but it is hard for a flat percent tax to generate the tangled mass of regulations and the the huge pool of incompetent and mean-spirited bureaucrats that the income tax does.


  

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