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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) I don’t understand libertarian opposition to income tax (Read 2033 times)
Don_G
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Re: I don’t understand libertarian opposition to income tax
Reply #10 - Jan 19th, 2018 at 5:35pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Jan 19th, 2018 at 4:00pm:


That's absurd.  At least if you mean your country's income tax.  About half the "taxpayers" are getting "refundable tax credits" so taxation doesn't apply to them.  In fact the income tax system is just another welfare check for them.


You raised a good point before you took it to the extreme. Refundable tax credits are one way that business escapes having to pay the proscribed tax rate. And there are many more I can tell you about if you became interested in knowing.

Never look at income tax rates that are set by government. Always look for actual taxes paid. This will tell you how bad government can minipulate the system for their friends.


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Yes, that's what I'm doing in this thread.  That's why I said, "Given that one believes hypothetically that government has the “right“ to decide how much it “needs” and how much any given person should before  contribute toward those needs, then take it at gunpoint with no regard for my needs . . . "



Sorry but I can't continue to entertain the 'gunpoint' arguement you keep coming back to. It's liberally incorrect as well as figuratively wrong too.
  
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Little Big Man
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Re: I don’t understand libertarian opposition to income tax
Reply #11 - Jan 19th, 2018 at 7:13pm
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You raised a good point before you took it to the extreme. Refundable tax credits are one way that business escapes having to pay the proscribed tax rate. And there are many more I can tell you about if you became interested in knowing.

Never look at income tax rates that are set by government. Always look for actual taxes paid. This will tell you how bad government can minipulate the system for their friends. 


Exactly.  Which is why your statement:

So why object to income taxation when it's the only way to make taxation apply to everyone?

Is absurd.



Quote:
Sorry but I can't continue to entertain the 'gunpoint' arguement you keep coming back to. It's liberally incorrect as well as figuratively wrong too.


There is no argument.  Taxes, especially income taxes, are taken at gunpoint.  If government went to a fee for service model, they would have considerably less revenue because citizens would only pay for things they actually want.  As long as the government demands money from people to pay for things they don't want, they'll have to use the Bonnie and Clyde model of persuasion.

Still, though.  Bill Gates, Mark Zucherburg and Donald Trump raised billions by only charging people for things they want.  Zuckerberg and Gates actually give a lot of stuff for free and still raise plenty of revenue.




  

Snarky no more!
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SkyChief
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Re: I don’t understand libertarian opposition to income tax
Reply #12 - Jan 19th, 2018 at 10:37pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Jan 19th, 2018 at 1:16pm:

...most libertarians here seem to accept the concept of taxation but oppose income taxes. I’m all ears if someone can explain why that is.

I can't speak for other libertarians - I'm a minarchist.  I understand that *some* taxes are necessary to fund the essential functions of government - and essential infrastructure/military force(s) to keep our country viable.

User taxes are more than sufficient to accomplish this goal.   Income Tax was a communist invention by Karl Marx [& Friedrich Engels] to forcibly steal wealth from the proletariat with the goal of making government more powerful.

Woodrow Wilson, the 28th President, bought into this communist ideology and signed The United States Revenue Act of 1913, aka, the Tariff Act.

He should have been publicly hanged for everyone to see on the steps of the Capitol building, imo.
  
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Don_G
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Re: I don’t understand libertarian opposition to income tax
Reply #13 - Jan 20th, 2018 at 1:03am
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SkyChief wrote on Jan 19th, 2018 at 10:37pm:
I can't speak for other libertarians - I'm a minarchist.  I understand that *some* taxes are necessary to fund the essential functions of government - and essential infrastructure/military force(s) to keep our country viable.

User taxes are more than sufficient to accomplish this goal.   Income Tax was a communist invention by Karl Marx [& Friedrich Engels] to forcibly steal wealth from the proletariat with the goal of making government more powerful.

Woodrow Wilson, the 28th President, bought into this communist ideology and signed The United States Revenue Act of 1913, aka, the Tariff Act.

He should have been publicly hanged for everyone to see on the steps of the Capitol building, imo.


We're both in favour of Wilson should have been hung, and a lot more US presidents too. But you have literallly nobody with you on your ideas of getting rid of income taxation.

Take tonight out to celebrate your hated government being shut down. You may even want to commend those in government who were responsible!

Ask burnsred who was responsible!
  
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SkyChief
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Re: I don’t understand libertarian opposition to income tax
Reply #14 - Jan 20th, 2018 at 1:17am
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Take tonight out to celebrate your hated government being shut down. You may even want to commend those in government who were responsible!

I admit it - I'm looking forward to the government shutting down.  Less government = more liberty!

“No man's life, liberty, or property are safe while the legislature is in session.” - Gideon J. Tucker
  
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Jeff
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Re: I don’t understand libertarian opposition to income tax
Reply #15 - Jan 20th, 2018 at 8:33am
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Little Big Man wrote on Jan 19th, 2018 at 1:16pm:
But if one  disagrees and believes that some government functions or all government functions are so important that it is acceptable to force people to pay, why specifically attack the idea of an income tax?
I don't attack the idea of legal taxes to support government that protects rights and Liberty, as our government is designed to do, nor do I attack the idea of taxing incomes.

The problem is, taxing wages and salaries as "income" is not legal taxation and taxing profits as income is.

One is illegal because it is improperly applied, the other legal because it is properly applied.

What the S. Ct. called "the two great classes of taxes", Direct and Indirect, they also correctly identified as classes into which any tax will fit.
There is no tax that is not one or the other, Direct or Indirect.

In order to discover into which category a tax should be placed in order that the Constitutional limitations on the taxing power may be properly applied, it is only necessary to look at the substance and effect of the tax as it is applied.

You can do it yourself. I did.

I decided that a tax laid on wages or salaries is Direct; It takes from a worker the product of that persons labor, exactly as if it were taking food from a person who grew that food to eat.

I also looked at a tax on profits earned by a farmer who grows food for sale to others and could easily see that that tax, in it's substance and effect, is Indirect; It leaves food which a farmer grows for his own consumption untaxed.

Pick some examples of your own, try to see the principle behind each of the two categories of taxation. See if you can understand the differences and the reason why the two categories of taxation are limited differently by the Constitution.

  
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Jeff
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Re: I don’t understand libertarian opposition to income tax
Reply #16 - Jan 20th, 2018 at 8:37am
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SkyChief wrote on Jan 19th, 2018 at 10:37pm:
User taxes are more than sufficient to accomplish this goal.
User fees aren't taxes. At least I can't see them as taxes...

Maybe you could explain it so I can see user fees as taxes. Thanks.

I have a suspicion that everything governments charge people to use is something the government is not authorized to be doing. I'll think about it more while I await your answer.
  
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SkyChief
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Re: I don’t understand libertarian opposition to income tax
Reply #17 - Jan 20th, 2018 at 11:59am
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Jeff wrote on Jan 20th, 2018 at 8:37am:
User fees aren't taxes. At least I can't see them as taxes...

Maybe you could explain it so I can see user fees as taxes. Thanks.

I have a suspicion that everything governments charge people to use is something the government is not authorized to be doing. I'll think about it more while I await your answer.

If you USE gasoline, you pay a Gasoline Tax.
If you smoke weed, you pay a Marijuana Tax.
If you download a lot of porn from the internet, you pay a Data Tax.
If you smoke tobacco, you pay a Tobacco Tax....
etc...etc..
  
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Don_G
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Re: I don’t understand libertarian opposition to income tax
Reply #18 - Jan 20th, 2018 at 12:06pm
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SkyChief wrote on Jan 20th, 2018 at 11:59am:
If you USE gasoline, you pay a Gasoline Tax.
If you smoke weed, you pay a Marijuana Tax.
If you download a lot of porn from the internet, you pay a Data Tax.
If you smoke tobacco, you pay a Tobacco Tax....
etc...etc..


You certainly appear to be in favour of all sorts of taxation. Isn't that interesting!

In your rush to explain away the need for income tax you have stepped squarely into the dog shit and are promoting government running completely out of control by taxing everything you try to do.

Well done! Do you think some of your fellow pseudo-libertarians are going to support you on this?

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If you USE gasoline, you pay a Gasoline Tax.


Brilliant!
  
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SkyChief
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Re: I don’t understand libertarian opposition to income tax
Reply #19 - Jan 20th, 2018 at 12:30pm
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You certainly appear to be in favour of all sorts of taxation. Isn't that interesting!

Yes, user taxes are a good alternative to Income Tax because if someone doesnn't want to pay the tax, they dont have to - they can drive an electric car. They can grow their own marijuana. They can purchase (out-of-state) tobacco online and roll their own. etc etc...

But there is no way to avoid Income Tax.

Only the very wealthy can afford tax lawyers to find ways to be tax-exempt!

Quote:
Well done! Do you think some of your fellow pseudo-libertarians are going to support you on this?

Brilliant!

To be honest, I don't really care what anyone thinks.  It's a solid libertarian solution to a failed communist  policy (income tax).  So the toothpaste is out of the tube.

I'm glad you approved!  It means a lot. Smiley
  
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