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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) I don’t understand libertarian opposition to income tax (Read 2029 times)
What If?
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Re: I don’t understand libertarian opposition to income tax
Reply #40 - Jan 4th, 2019 at 3:30am
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kaz wrote on Jan 1st, 2019 at 2:12pm:
Seriously?  You don't object to government tracking every dollar you ever earn and suspending your Constitutional rights by allowing them to make you prove your income tax form without any probable cause or warrant for them to do so?  That's the same to you as a sales tax where you just pay a percentage of what you buy?

Not must for privacy, huh?


I take his point though. Property taxes strip freedom from prudent individuals.

Consider someone who has paid off their house, grows their own fruit and vegetables and has savings in the bank or investments to live off of. Even if there was 0% income tax and no consumption tax, they still need to flip the bill for "owning" a property outright.
  
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kaz
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Re: I don’t understand libertarian opposition to income tax
Reply #41 - Jan 4th, 2019 at 8:36am
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What If? wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 3:30am:
I take his point though. Property taxes strip freedom from prudent individuals.

Consider someone who has paid off their house, grows their own fruit and vegetables and has savings in the bank or investments to live off of. Even if there was 0% income tax and no consumption tax, they still need to flip the bill for "owning" a property outright.


I'm not clear what you're asking me.

Edit:  Note ... to Opposition ... that when I didn't understand what he was saying ... I asked him.  I didn't make up stupid shit and say he said that
  

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What If?
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Re: I don’t understand libertarian opposition to income tax
Reply #42 - Jan 4th, 2019 at 6:40pm
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kaz wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 8:36am:
I'm not clear what you're asking me.

Edit:  Note ... to Opposition ... that when I didn't understand what he was saying ... I asked him.  I didn't make up stupid shit and say he said that


I'm not asking anything. I'm partaking in a discussion.
  
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kaz
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Re: I don’t understand libertarian opposition to income tax
Reply #43 - Jan 4th, 2019 at 7:53pm
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What If? wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 6:40pm:
I'm not asking anything. I'm partaking in a discussion.


Those aren't mutually exclusive, but sure.  That's fine
  

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Jeff
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Re: I don’t understand libertarian opposition to income tax
Reply #44 - Jan 5th, 2019 at 7:31am
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What If? wrote on Jan 4th, 2019 at 3:30am:
I take his point though. Property taxes strip freedom from prudent individuals.

Consider someone who has paid off their house, grows their own fruit and vegetables and has savings in the bank or investments to live off of. Even if there was 0% income tax and no consumption tax, they still need to flip the bill for "owning" a property outright.
Yes, property taxes make it difficult if not impossible to live completely isolated from the economy of your community, but It's a gross exaggeration to say property taxes "strip freedom".

Basically, every individual who lives other than in total isolation has to make some concessions of their own individual freedom simply because the rights of other people and other people's right to be free require it.

Only anarchists argue against all taxation, but many people argue that consumption taxes are more "fair". However, local property taxes tie local governments to the people in local communities who have "skin in the game", and I think that helps keep local governments under control.
  
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Little Big Man
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Re: I don’t understand libertarian opposition to income tax
Reply #45 - Jan 6th, 2019 at 1:44pm
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Jeff wrote on Jan 5th, 2019 at 7:31am:
Yes, property taxes make it difficult if not impossible to live completely isolated from the economy of your community, but It's a gross exaggeration to say property taxes "strip freedom".

Basically, every individual who lives other than in total isolation has to make some concessions of their own individual freedom simply because the rights of other people and other people's right to be free require it.

Only anarchists argue against all taxation, but many people argue that consumption taxes are more "fair". However, local property taxes tie local governments to the people in local communities who have "skin in the game", and I think that helps keep local governments under control.


No, Jeff.  The whole point of libertarianism is that we do not need to be isolated from every other human being in order to be free.  We only have to protect ourselves from any human being who wants to take away our freedom. 

A voluntarily paid government will be motivated to protect our freedom rather than take it away from us.  A government funded by theft is by definition not interested in protecting our property rights and therefore unlikely to be interested in protecting our other rights.

  

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Re: I don’t understand libertarian opposition to income tax
Reply #46 - Jan 7th, 2019 at 1:08am
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Jeff wrote on Jan 5th, 2019 at 7:31am:
Yes, property taxes make it difficult if not impossible to live completely isolated from the economy of your community, but It's a gross exaggeration to say property taxes "strip freedom".

Basically, every individual who lives other than in total isolation has to make some concessions of their own individual freedom simply because the rights of other people and other people's right to be free require it.

Only anarchists argue against all taxation, but many people argue that consumption taxes are more "fair". However, local property taxes tie local governments to the people in local communities who have "skin in the game", and I think that helps keep local governments under control.


I see this argument a lot.

I know what you are saying, and I think it's why countries like Switzerland (with their "cantons") and Andorra with it's "comunes") manage it quite well. The people spending your money are part of your very small community. They are spending their mother's money, their brother's money, and their friends' money. If they mess up, they burn a lot of bridges with close relationships.

But at the same time I find the concept of contracting privately for services such as rubbish collection.


  
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kaz
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Re: I don’t understand libertarian opposition to income tax
Reply #47 - Jan 7th, 2019 at 6:28am
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What If? wrote on Jan 7th, 2019 at 1:08am:
I see this argument a lot.

I know what you are saying, and I think it's why countries like Switzerland (with their "cantons") and Andorra with it's "comunes") manage it quite well. The people spending your money are part of your very small community. They are spending their mother's money, their brother's money, and their friends' money. If they mess up, they burn a lot of bridges with close relationships.

But at the same time I find the concept of contracting privately for services such as rubbish collection.




Property taxes certainly strip freedom since they make you a renter to the government.  Don't pay your rent, they take away your property, just like any other landlord.  There is no more despotic government concept than taxing property
  

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Jeff
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Re: I don’t understand libertarian opposition to income tax
Reply #48 - Jan 7th, 2019 at 8:49am
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Little Big Man wrote on Jan 6th, 2019 at 1:44pm:
No, Jeff.  The whole point of libertarianism is that we do not need to be isolated from every other human being in order to be free.
My point is that in order to live in any community of people, you must make concessions to their equal right to be free, and that necessarily involves some constraints on your perfect freedom, just as their to perfect freedom is constrained by your equal rights.
  
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Jeff
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Re: I don’t understand libertarian opposition to income tax
Reply #49 - Jan 7th, 2019 at 8:51am
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Little Big Man wrote on Jan 6th, 2019 at 1:44pm:
A voluntarily paid government will be motivated to protect our freedom rather than take it away from us.
That's a bold unsupported statement.

I've not yet been convinced by your arguments that such a government is possible or that it would in practice not rapidly devolve into a tyranny.
  
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