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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) I don’t understand libertarian opposition to income tax (Read 1182 times)
kaz
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Re: I don’t understand libertarian opposition to income tax
Reply #60 - Jan 9th, 2019 at 5:56pm
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genepool wrote on Jan 9th, 2019 at 8:01am:
I do not like income taxes.

Why?

Because I want to be rich. I want my money to grow tax free.

With property tax I can save money by living on small land. With sales tax I can save money by buying less.

I also think that property tax is fair. Governments provide police, roads, and facilities. That improves land price.

If government tax land, I can tell voters kings or whatever rulers in a country look, you better legalize weed and fill prisons with real criminals instead. People would flock here and land price will go up, and you will get more money out of it.

With income taxes, there is no such link. I make more money because I work harder and smarter. How does that motivate people to make their country attractive for immigrants? If anything voters just want immigrants out. The only incentive is I would go to another country with lower tax or moving my company out.

It's not about just freedom. Free market is fair. However, not everything fair has to be done through market mechanism. States themselves are players in free market. If you don't like it you can live.

It also resolves dilemma about border controls.


If a state is well governed, the land tax in that state, and hence rent will high. Just ask any immigrants, can you afford rent? Reject those who can't. Hell.... Well governed countries are rare. Well governed countries that respect libertarian principles are practically unicorn.

If there is such country, I would love to pay visa to stay there. The citizens and rulers in such countries deserve it. That means head taxes though. I would avoid countries with high income taxes like plague.


The best solution is the fair tax.  All taxes are baked into economic transactions anyway, so it's a single straight forward flat tax on the source of all taxes.  Except the death tax, and that one is evil
  

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kaz
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Re: I don’t understand libertarian opposition to income tax
Reply #61 - Jan 9th, 2019 at 6:00pm
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SkyChief wrote on Jan 9th, 2019 at 11:48am:
My Guest Visa program accomplishes this goal:

Immigrants pay a flat rate ($500) for a 12-month Guest Visa which allows them to come and go freely.

This visa can renewed indefinitely, however the rate is progressive, meaning the fee doubles with each renewal;

Initial Guest Visa . . . . . . . . . . . $500

1st renewal . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $1000

2nd renewal . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .$2000

3rd renewal . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $4000

4th renewal . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $8000 

etc, etc...


I'd reverse that.  Have them pay $10K the first year, $8K the second and so on until it reaches a couple K a year and stays there until they become citizens
  

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Jeff
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Re: I don’t understand libertarian opposition to income tax
Reply #62 - Jan 9th, 2019 at 7:33pm
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kaz wrote on Jan 9th, 2019 at 6:00pm:
I'd reverse that.  Have them pay $10K the first year, $8K the second and so on until it reaches a couple K a year and stays there until they become citizens
Let's assume they are coming to work, and they are coming from places where even hard work, if they can get work, doesn't pay well...

I'd rather they have money when they come than start out broke.

And the path to citizenship should be short and easy. If it's not, your plan, or the Chief's, will insure that they can't get ahead economically while they are here working. That seems a bad idea.
  
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What If?
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Re: I don’t understand libertarian opposition to income tax
Reply #63 - yesterday at 5:44am
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I've been travelling a lot the last few years, kind of obsessed by small countries.

One of my obsessions is Andorra - a country that for the longest time had no income taxes until the French president forced it on them.

Even today, employees of local companies have a 0% income tax, everyone else pays 10%.

People think that countries like this would be in ruins, but it's well maintained (and beautiful), has the best healthcare in the world, the crime rate is very low with almost no serious crimes, and the locals are happy and feel wealthy.
  
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Jeff
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Re: I don’t understand libertarian opposition to income tax
Reply #64 - yesterday at 8:27am
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kaz wrote on Jan 9th, 2019 at 5:56pm:
The best solution is the fair tax.  All taxes are baked into economic transactions anyway, so it's a single straight forward flat tax on the source of all taxes.
How is it not a VAT?
  
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Jeff
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Re: I don’t understand libertarian opposition to income tax
Reply #65 - yesterday at 8:35am
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What If? wrote yesterday at 5:44am:
I've been travelling a lot the last few years, kind of obsessed by small countries.

One of my obsessions is Andorra - a country that for the longest time had no income taxes until the French president forced it on them.

Even today, employees of local companies have a 0% income tax, everyone else pays 10%.

People think that countries like this would be in ruins, but it's well maintained (and beautiful), has the best healthcare in the world, the crime rate is very low with almost no serious crimes, and the locals are happy and feel wealthy.
They raised the revenue they needed by means of import tariffs, and of course they don't need much revenue, not needing any national defense and (I think) not having a welfare state).

From Wikipedia-

"Andorra has long benefited from its status as a tax haven, with revenues raised exclusively through import tariffs. However, during the European sovereign-debt crisis of the 21st century, its tourist economy suffered a decline, partly caused by a drop in the prices of goods in Spain, which undercut Andorran duty-free shopping. This led to a growth in unemployment. On 1 January 2012, a business tax of 10% was introduced,[123] followed by a sales tax of 2% a year later, which raised just over 14 million euros in its first quarter.[124]

On 31 May 2013, it was announced that Andorra intended to legislate for the introduction of an income tax by the end of June, against a background of increasing dissatisfaction with the existence of tax havens among EU members.[125] The announcement was made following a meeting in Paris between the Head of Government Antoni Marti and the French President and Prince of Andorra, François Hollande. Hollande welcomed the move as part of a process of Andorra "bringing its taxation in line with international standards".[126] 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andorra#Politics
  
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Little Big Man
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Re: I don’t understand libertarian opposition to income tax
Reply #66 - yesterday at 9:03am
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Jeff wrote yesterday at 8:35am:
They raised the revenue they needed by means of import tariffs, and of course they don't need much revenue, not needing any national defense and (I think) not having a welfare state).


The only reason we need such an absurdly bloated national defense is that we are constantly interfering with other countries.  We certainly don't need a welfare state which harms the dolees more than the people who are forced to pay.
  

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Jeff
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Re: I don’t understand libertarian opposition to income tax
Reply #67 - yesterday at 9:40am
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Little Big Man wrote yesterday at 9:03am:
The only reason we need such an absurdly bloated national defense is that we are constantly interfering with other countries.  We certainly don't need a welfare state which harms the dolees more than the people who are forced to pay.
I agree.
  
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