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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Detailed examples of free markets doing well? (Read 1472 times)
thatmilkman
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Detailed examples of free markets doing well?
Jan 23rd, 2018 at 9:40pm
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Hey everyone! First post here, thanks to whoever approved me... I look forward to picking your brains Smiley

I'm not terribly knowledgable yet, but have picked up a hobby in arguing about politics with people. But, I've noticed I have a blind spot when it comes to providing measurable evidence in favor of free markets performing well when compared to planned economies, high taxes, redistribution, etc.

I tend to focus more on philosophy and principles, but am lacking when it comes to history. Because of this, I worry I may err on the side of dogmatism should I fail to test principles against history.

Socialists tend to bring up things like the super high taxes between the 40s and the 80s corresponding with a 'thriving economy', Reagan's deficit, and Kansas today as evidence that markets work poorly.

How would you guys approach these topics? And do you know of historic examples and metrics I could point to, to defend markets? Any help or advice on where to look would be greatly appreciated.
  
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kaz
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Re: Detailed examples of free markets doing well?
Reply #1 - Jan 23rd, 2018 at 10:26pm
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Welcome!
  

Greg Gutfeld - I became a conservative by being around liberals and I became a libertarian by being around conservatives

Matt Stone - I hate conservatives, but I really f'ing hate liberals
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The Opposition
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Re: Detailed examples of free markets doing well?
Reply #2 - Jan 24th, 2018 at 5:41am
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"But, that was tried and it didn't work."

Terrible argument when libertarians use it against socialism, terrible when socialists use it against libertarianism.

I've always said this but people usually shoot me down for it.

I just don't think drinking spoiled milk proves that all milk is bad. We're dealing with human beings and different populations and multitudes of other factors.

I have always advocated testing policies in a scientific way, with control groups. I actually want to see what happens. Sometimes I don't think any policies get a fair shake, and tinfoil hate time here... but I kind of suspect the enemies of those policies make sure they don't work. I think this happens to both sides, with everyone undermining eachother and no one making any headway.

If you don't have a control group - if the factor you're talking about isn't the only influencing factor - any argument based on what happened is unscientific and worthless.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: Detailed examples of free markets doing well?
Reply #3 - Jan 24th, 2018 at 6:56am
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thatmilkman wrote on Jan 23rd, 2018 at 9:40pm:
How would you guys approach these topics? And do you know of historic examples and metrics I could point to, to defend markets? Any help or advice on where to look would be greatly appreciated.
East Germany v. West Germany.

North Korea v. South Korea.

Western Europe v. The Soviet Union.

Those are some of the most obvious examples.

Of course none of the better performing economies are/were totally free, but it's pretty obvious more free works better than less free. It's also more fun!

How about Hong Kong and Singapore and The Republic of China v. Communist China?
  
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Jeff
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Re: Detailed examples of free markets doing well?
Reply #4 - Jan 24th, 2018 at 7:03am
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The Opposition wrote on Jan 24th, 2018 at 5:41am:
"But, that was tried and it didn't work."

Terrible argument when libertarians use it against socialism, terrible when socialists use it against libertarianism.

Right. Nobody has ever proved that "socialism" is a bad system because nobody has ever been able to create a "real" or "pure" socialist system...

That's not true.

The Pilgrims who came to America were pure socialists when they arrived and pure socialists after they arrived, until they began to starve.

Then they abandoned their "pure" socialism, started to recognize property rights, and did OK.

There are many examples in history of small "pure" socialist societies, and they all failed. The one's with strong religious ties in their communities lasted longest, but they failed too. Not even faith in God can make socialism work.
  
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ahhell
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Re: Detailed examples of free markets doing well?
Reply #5 - Jan 24th, 2018 at 8:36am
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Welcome,

There's a whole thread about Kansas around here somewhere.  Cato has decent article about why its a terrible example.  Mostly they cut taxes and increased spending and ran out of money.

40s through the 80s is a unique time for a number of reasons.  After the war the US was the only country that still had an economy to speak of or any industrial base.  We were the only ones producing anything through the 50s and it wasn't until the 70s that any other nations came close to the US.  Its amazing how lack of competition really improves profits.  Also, we had a good economy through they 80s?

The 70s gave stagflation.  Also a great example for why price controls fail.  We had price controls on oil products and thus shortages.

Jeff is basically correct about socialism and its failures.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Detailed examples of free markets doing well?
Reply #6 - Jan 24th, 2018 at 9:20am
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ahhell wrote on Jan 24th, 2018 at 8:36am:
40s through the 80s is a unique time for a number of reasons.  After the war the US was the only country that still had an economy to speak of or any industrial base.
Mostly true, with the exception of the Soviet Union. Yes, they had been invaded, but by the end of the war they had a huge industrial base producing war material, just like the U.S., and they looted what was left worth looting from Western Europe too.

Not that it did them any good, their centrally planned economy just never worked. Western Europe rather quickly re-created their own mostly free economies and quickly outpaced the Soviet satellite states and the Soviet Union.

Japan was devastated and impoverished by the war too, but establishing mostly free market principles there also resulted in Japan rather quickly becoming prosperous.
And yes, governments almost everywhere kept growing and making their economies less free, including in the U.S.
Central Banks and fiat money helped make things worse everywhere, and it's not over yet.
  
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Don_G
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Re: Detailed examples of free markets doing well?
Reply #7 - Jan 24th, 2018 at 12:55pm
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thatmilkman wrote on Jan 23rd, 2018 at 9:40pm:
Hey everyone! First post here, thanks to whoever approved me... I look forward to picking your brains Smiley

I'm not terribly knowledgable yet, but have picked up a hobby in arguing about politics with people. But, I've noticed I have a blind spot when it comes to providing measurable evidence in favor of free markets performing well when compared to planned economies, high taxes, redistribution, etc.

I tend to focus more on philosophy and principles, but am lacking when it comes to history. Because of this, I worry I may err on the side of dogmatism should I fail to test principles against history.

Socialists tend to bring up things like the super high taxes between the 40s and the 80s corresponding with a 'thriving economy', Reagan's deficit, and Kansas today as evidence that markets work poorly.

How would you guys approach these topics? And do you know of historic examples and metrics I could point to, to defend markets? Any help or advice on where to look would be greatly appreciated.


Let me know if you're at all interested in a sensible and moderate discussion on what I call 'socially responsible capitalism'. Briefly, it's a blend of capitalism with socialist innovations blended in to serve the people in the best way possible.

I call it 'real' libertarianism, as opposed to impossible libertarianism of the sort that's being advocated by pseudo-libertarians on this forum.

But only if you still have an open mind; otherwise pay no attention to what I have to say.

FWIW, I say it's the direction the US will need to take after the downfall of Trump and his extremism. I'm a Canadian but that's not accepted by the people on this forum. Not worth arguing.
  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: Detailed examples of free markets doing well?
Reply #8 - Jan 24th, 2018 at 1:00pm
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thatmilkman, please tell Don that you are interested in knowing more about socially responsible capitalism.  Many of us have asked him for details and he just keeps saying he's already explained it.  Do us a solid and see if you can get it out of him.
  

"I think I'll backtrack." - Jeff
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Don_G
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Re: Detailed examples of free markets doing well?
Reply #9 - Jan 24th, 2018 at 1:07pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Jan 24th, 2018 at 1:00pm:
thatmilkman, please tell Don that you are interested in knowing more about socially responsible capitalism.  Many of us have asked him for details and he just keeps saying he's already explained it.  Do us a solid and see if you can get it out of him. 


You're expressing fear of the new guy actually accepting that which you fear could lead to a rational discussion. If he buys into it with you then I would be wasting time talking to him anyway.

He came to a libertarian forum so that makes my odds very long against me. I've always accepted that.
  
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