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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) TWO MORE Questions for Supporters of the Fair Tax (Read 525 times)
kaz
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Re: TWO MORE Questions for Supporters of the Fair Tax
Reply #20 - Feb 1st, 2018 at 2:41pm
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Burnsred isn't going to answer that ugly nonsense so he gave me permission to answer you.

Burnsred has nothing to do with any Hitler system you stupid pig.

You're a holocaust denier and burnsred is not Mussolini.

There's no reason why anybody should answer your spamming pig remarks. Take another year off.


OMG that's funny.  You're a piece of work.  So basically you don't want me to go now so you're amusing me, huh ...
  

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Re: TWO MORE Questions for Supporters of the Fair Tax
Reply #21 - Feb 1st, 2018 at 3:12pm
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kaz wrote on Feb 1st, 2018 at 10:24am:
As an experienced business owner, I really don't have a problem processing the sales tax.  Yes, it's a tax for the customer, but I was part of that transaction.   Why I need to process the taxes my employees pay is a much better question. 
I don't see the difference. You are willing to collect taxes for government when you sell goods or services, why not be just as willing to collect taxes for government when you are paying your employees?

The fact that you collect one on receipt of money and the other on expenditure doesn't change that you are collecting taxes for the government.

You are equally a part of a transaction when you pay someone for working.
  
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Jeff
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Re: TWO MORE Questions for Supporters of the Fair Tax
Reply #22 - Feb 1st, 2018 at 3:16pm
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kaz wrote on Feb 1st, 2018 at 10:24am:
As an experienced business owner, I really don't have a problem processing the sales tax.  Yes, it's a tax for the customer, but I was part of that transaction.   Why I need to process the taxes my employees pay is a much better question.  But my customer comes and buys from my business, it's a deal between us.

1)  I don't see how my collecting the taxes for our transactions and sending it in rather than thousands of customers processing them individual just seems a lot more efficient to me even though I am the one who has to do it. 

2)  You only addressed retail transactions, there are a lot more transactions than that

3)  The idea of putting machines everywhere is hugely costly.  We're going to have to pay a lot more taxes for all those.  There are millions of businesses in the country

4)  And wow, the police costs to force all those people to pay their taxes.

It's just a bad idea that opens the door to massive fraud and a police state to enforce it for millions of machines.

And my just processing sales taxes is way better than what I do now.  I collect way more than the one tax and send it to the government
Just call it a VAT kaz, I do. If we can get everybody to call it what it is, it will be easier to talk about and we will have the advantage of seeing it as something that many European countries already have.
  
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kaz
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Re: TWO MORE Questions for Supporters of the Fair Tax
Reply #23 - Feb 1st, 2018 at 3:20pm
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Jeff wrote on Feb 1st, 2018 at 3:12pm:
I don't see the difference. You are willing to collect taxes for government when you sell goods or services, why not be just as willing to collect taxes for government when you are paying your employees?

The fact that you collect one on receipt of money and the other on expenditure doesn't change that you are collecting taxes for the government.

You are equally a part of a transaction when you pay someone for working.


1) I sell do a deal with a customer and there is a tax generated (sales/Fair Tax).  We both did that deal.  It's a straight percentage that just needs to be mailed in to the government.

2) I pay an employee.   And I have to process his taxes for him.  I have to process paper work, with hold his Federal, State and local taxes, pay his Social Security and Medicare premiums for him.  Why doesn't he just give me his mortgage bill so I can withhold and pay that for him too?

You see those as the same?  Seriously?

The idea of withholdings is also something I consider deeply immoral.  You should have to write a check to the government for every dollar you pay them so it's apparent to you how much money they are stealing from you and what little you get for it
  

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kaz
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Re: TWO MORE Questions for Supporters of the Fair Tax
Reply #24 - Feb 1st, 2018 at 3:22pm
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Jeff wrote on Feb 1st, 2018 at 3:16pm:
Just call it a VAT kaz, I do. If we can get everybody to call it what it is, it will be easier to talk about and we will have the advantage of seeing it as something that many European countries already have.


Because the Fair Tax is not a VAT.  Calling it something it's not is not helpful
  

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Jeff
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Re: TWO MORE Questions for Supporters of the Fair Tax
Reply #25 - Feb 1st, 2018 at 3:25pm
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kaz wrote on Feb 1st, 2018 at 3:22pm:
Because the Fair Tax is not a VAT.  Calling it something it's not is not helpful
It walks like a duck, looks like a duck, quacks like a duck... But you can call it a swan if you want to.
  
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kaz
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Re: TWO MORE Questions for Supporters of the Fair Tax
Reply #26 - Feb 1st, 2018 at 3:45pm
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Jeff wrote on Feb 1st, 2018 at 3:25pm:
It walks like a duck, looks like a duck, quacks like a duck... But you can call it a swan if you want to.


I will explain this to you one more time.  After that, I'm going to go back to insulting you.

In the end (in theory), you end up paying the same amount of tax in a VAT and a sales tax.  But there are major differences.

Let's say you're a bike manufacturer and you sell a bike to a little girl. 

Let's say you buy the frame, tires and seat and put them together from companies A, B and C.   The frame manufacturer buys the metal from a mining company, D.  The tire manufacturer buys rims from company E and rubber company F.

Let's say there are no other vendors involved, though of course there are and it's way more complicated. 

With a VAT, you pay the sales tax at every step of production.  So

When company A (frame vendor) buys metal from Company D (mining company), they pay a VAT.  Let's say they paid $1,000 for the metal to make 100 bikes.  And let's say the VAT is 10%.  So for each bike the VAT is $1

When Company B (tire company) buys rims from Company E and Rubber from Comany F, they pay a VAT on both.  Lets say it's $1 to each vendor.  Total VAT for the bike is $2.  Then the bike manufacturer buys the tire for a VAT of $4.  They have to track that $2 was already paid, so they pay $2 to the government.

Let's say Company C (seat manufacturer) charges a $1 VAT.

Now the bike company puts it all together and sells the bike for $100 and a VAT of $10

They actually pay a VAT of $4 because $6 in VATs have already been paid by the various vendors through the process.

with a sales tax you pay a $10 sales tax when you sell the bike

the differences

You're arguing that end the end, in theory, a $10 tax is paid, same thing.  However:

1)  The VAT was WAY more complicated.  All that VAT information needs to be collected and passed through the process so later production stages don't re-pay the VAT.  And note that seldom in the manufacturing process is it this simple.  A factory may buy metal and use it on several different products.  It needs to allocate the VAT across all those projects for every component of every project.  It's a major IT and accounting effort.  The sales tax is just charged once at the end when the sale is made

2)  The VAT also has more complications what work is done in house versus outsourced to a vendor and what's done overseas and imported.  Companies have to put major resources and costs to just calculate VATs.

3)  Note also the sales tax is charged at the sale to the end user.  It's when you get your profits.  The VAT is charged all through the production process, which expedites paying taxes, which is a free loan to the government.

I've explained this before.  If you still don't get it, it's on you, Jeff
« Last Edit: Feb 2nd, 2018 at 9:33am by kaz »  

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kaz
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Re: TWO MORE Questions for Supporters of the Fair Tax
Reply #27 - Feb 1st, 2018 at 3:49pm
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Jeff wrote on Feb 1st, 2018 at 3:25pm:
It walks like a duck, looks like a duck, quacks like a duck... But you can call it a swan if you want to.


It walks like a horse, looks like a banana and quacks like a bad doctor, it's not a duck
  

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Snarky Sack
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Re: TWO MORE Questions for Supporters of the Fair Tax
Reply #28 - Feb 1st, 2018 at 4:25pm
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Jeff wrote on Feb 1st, 2018 at 3:12pm:
I don't see the difference. You are willing to collect taxes for government when you sell goods or services, why not be just as willing to collect taxes for government when you are paying your employees?

The fact that you collect one on receipt of money and the other on expenditure doesn't change that you are collecting taxes for the government.

You are equally a part of a transaction when you pay someone for working.


Ok, so your opposition to income tax means "income tax" as defined in your carriage rental example?  You're fine with an employer collected tax on wages or salaries or whatever you would call the transaction of paying someone to work?

I'm just asking, that question is not meant to be snarky.


  

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kaz
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Re: TWO MORE Questions for Supporters of the Fair Tax
Reply #29 - Feb 1st, 2018 at 4:28pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Feb 1st, 2018 at 4:25pm:
Ok, so your opposition to income tax means "income tax" as defined in your carriage rental example?  You're fine with an employer collected tax on wages or salaries or whatever you would call the transaction of paying someone to work?

I'm just asking, that question is not meant to be snarky.




Jeff's conflating simply forwarding a simple tax on a transaction to the government with having to process all the various taxes that an employee is required to pay for them
  

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Matt Stone - I hate conservatives, but I really f'ing hate liberals
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