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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Convected fellons that servedthere time should have the right to vote (Read 636 times)
Jeff
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Re: Convected fellons that servedthere time should have the right to vote
Reply #10 - Jan 31st, 2018 at 7:53am
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The Opposition wrote on Jan 30th, 2018 at 10:16pm:
Jeff doesn't understand that being nasty should not disqualify you from voting. Neither should being evil.
I do understand that acting out your evil, perhaps by murdering people, does disqualify you, by your own freely chosen action, from participating in society.

All murderers and other violent felons should be treated equally, and none of them should ever vote again.


  
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SnarkySack
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Re: Convected fellons that servedthere time should have the right to vote
Reply #11 - Jan 31st, 2018 at 8:49am
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Jeff wrote on Jan 31st, 2018 at 7:48am:
1) That's why juries are supposed to be involved, so they can stop the government from wrongly convicting and imprisoning people.

2) That's why juries are supposed to be involved, so they can stop the government from convicting people of things that aren't actually crimes.

3) People in prison are having their rights restricted, not being governed. In fact, the theory of American government is that people govern themselves. People are imprisoned when they demonstrate that they can't, or won't, govern themselves.

Choosing representatives to give yourself a voice in the government is not granting "consent" to anything beyond consenting to have an elected representative speak and vote for your district in Congress.

Maybe you should tell me again what you mean by "Consent of the governed"?


I just did yesterday. 

burnsred wrote yesterday at 1:43pm:
Quote:
Sure.  For valid consent of the governed to exist two elements need be present:

1)  the governed must know what they are consenting to, i.e. exactly who the government will be made up of and how they will be selected in the future and what the government is doing or will be doing.  They don't have to know every single detail, but with rare exceptions, details should be available for them to see if they make the effort.

2)  the governed must express that they are consenting to be governed by that government in way that would allow them to also demonstrate that they do not consent.

So if the unelected part of the government were secretly acting in ways to influence an election or to alter the results of an election, the people can't give consent for that because they don't know what the government is doing and because it lends the lie to the purported method of selecting members of the government.


I'll talk about it again in a new topic today if I get to it.

Quote:
Should I tell you again what it actually means?





Sure, I'd like your take on it.

  

I used to be burnsred . . .
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Jeff
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Re: Convected fellons that servedthere time should have the right to vote
Reply #12 - Jan 31st, 2018 at 8:57am
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SnarkySack wrote on Jan 31st, 2018 at 8:49am:
I just did yesterday.  I'll tell you again in a new topic today if I get to it.


Sure, I'd like your take on it.

A government that gets it's power to operate (in fact owes it's very existence to the people's law) from a law approved by the people, where the people retain the right to alter the law that controls the government, is said to have the consent of the governed.

This contrasts starkly with a government that has taken the power to govern itself into it's own hands and can add to or alter it's powers without the consent of the governed.

Is that clear enough?
  
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SnarkySack
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Re: Convected fellons that servedthere time should have the right to vote
Reply #13 - Jan 31st, 2018 at 9:01am
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Jeff wrote on Jan 31st, 2018 at 8:57am:
A government that gets it's power to operate (in fact owes it's very existence to the people's law) from a law approved by the people, where the people retain the right to alter the law that controls the government, is said to have the consent of the governed.

This contrasts starkly with a government that has taken the power to govern itself into it's own hands and can add to or alter it's powers without the consent of the governed.

Is that clear enough?


Sure, it's pretty much what I said, except I gave some specifics.  Later today, I'll be asking questions about the details of how consent is obtained and validated.  I hope you'll answer them.

  

I used to be burnsred . . .
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Jeff
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Re: Convected fellons that servedthere time should have the right to vote
Reply #14 - Jan 31st, 2018 at 9:14am
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SnarkySack wrote on Jan 31st, 2018 at 9:01am:
Sure, it's pretty much what I said, except I gave some specifics.  Later today, I'll be asking questions about the details of how consent is obtained and validated.  I hope you'll answer them.

You don't think the Constitution is a legal document?
  
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ahhell
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Re: Convected fellons that servedthere time should have the right to vote
Reply #15 - Jan 31st, 2018 at 9:15am
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Jeff wrote on Jan 31st, 2018 at 7:40am:
I was interested in knowing why you are "tepidly" for it. Thanks.
Read again.
ahhell wrote on Jan 30th, 2018 at 4:28pm:
I tepidly support suspending the right to vote while serving the sentence.


  
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Jeff
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Re: Convected fellons that servedthere time should have the right to vote
Reply #16 - Jan 31st, 2018 at 10:14am
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ahhell wrote on Jan 31st, 2018 at 9:15am:
Read again.

Yes sorry.
Again, why "tepidly"?
  
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SnarkySack
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Re: Convected fellons that servedthere time should have the right to vote
Reply #17 - Jan 31st, 2018 at 10:19am
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Jeff wrote on Jan 31st, 2018 at 9:14am:
You don't think the Constitution is a legal document?


Obviously, it's a legal document.  The question is whether it provides a means for the people to express consent to be governed under it and a feasible means for them to express lack of consent to be governed under it which would be honored.

Hopefully you've read my topic about global warming not being falsifiable.  When I make my topic later today about consent of the governed, I'll be asking whether consent of the governed is falsifiable.  I'm giving you that preview so you can think about it before I ask.  I'd like to know your thought out opinion, not a knee jerk reaction.
  

I used to be burnsred . . .
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ahhell
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Re: Convected fellons that servedthere time should have the right to vote
Reply #18 - Jan 31st, 2018 at 10:28am
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Jeff wrote on Jan 31st, 2018 at 10:14am:
Yes sorry.
Again, why "tepidly"?
Because I think its moot.  Convicts retain some rights, I'm don't think voting should be one of those rights but, I could have my mind change with a slightly more convincing argument.

The argument for why they should loose the right to vote is only mildly more compelling to me than the argument for why they shouldn't.

Jeff wrote on Jan 31st, 2018 at 7:48am:
1) That's why juries are supposed to be involved, so they can stop the government from wrongly convicting and imprisoning people.

2) That's why juries are supposed to be involved, so they can stop the government from convicting people of things that aren't actually crimes.

3) People in prison are having their rights restricted, not being governed. In fact, the theory of American government is that people govern themselves. People are imprisoned when they demonstrate that they can't, or won't, govern themselves.

Choosing representatives to give yourself a voice in the government is not granting "consent" to anything beyond consenting to have an elected representative speak and vote for your district in Congress.

Maybe you should tell me again what you mean by "Consent of the governed"?

Should I tell you again what it actually means?

This argument isn't that convincing to me really.  Honestly the only reason I support suspending voting rights for convicts is because that's what I'm used to and I accept that criminals have abrogate their rights by violating the rights of others but as Burns noted, we know that our justice system is imperfect and convicts people who are not guilty pretty regularly.
  
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Don_G
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Re: Convected fellons that servedthere time should have the right to vote
Reply #19 - Jan 31st, 2018 at 11:46am
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It's hard to know what Jeff wants because he promotes disagreement to get attention. Too bad that when he gets unreasonable he ends up talking and arguing with himself.

It's likely the reason he's a kristyun, so he can talk to his imaginary man in the sky.
  
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