Libertarian's Forum
Libertarian Forum to discuss politics and free market economics.
Libertarian's ForumLibertarian's ForumFreedom Forum › Is Consent of the Governed Falsifiable?
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 13 Send TopicPrint
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Is Consent of the Governed Falsifiable? (Read 922 times)
SnarkySack
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 2986
Location: Republic of Me
Joined: Sep 11th, 2017
Is Consent of the Governed Falsifiable?
Jan 31st, 2018 at 11:41am
Print Post  
Consent of the governed is the standard by which we determine that a government is or is not legitimate.  So does that require that such consent be expressed and not assumed?  Does it also need to be expressed in a way such that if consent is not given or is withdrawn that that the government would recognize its own illegitimacy?  Must a government composed of moral people then stop attempting to govern an unwilling people?

In other words, is the claim that a people have consented to be governed by their existing government falsifiable?  Take the U.S. government:  Have the people governed by it given consent?  If so, how and when did they do that?  Is there a realistic way that the people could tell the government that it doesn't consent to be governed?  If they did tell the U.S. government that, what would the U.S. government then do?

Consent of the governed is a fine idea.  I'm wondering if it has ever been a reality.
  

I used to be burnsred . . .
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Don_G
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 9847
Location: British Columbia
Joined: May 8th, 2017
Re: Is Consent of the Governed Falsifiable?
Reply #1 - Jan 31st, 2018 at 11:56am
Print Post  
SnarkySack wrote on Jan 31st, 2018 at 11:41am:
Consent of the governed is the standard by which we determine that a government is or is not legitimate.  So does that require that such consent be expressed and not assumed?  Does it also need to be expressed in a way such that if consent is not given or is withdrawn that that the government would recognize its own illegitimacy?  Must a government composed of moral people then stop attempting to govern an unwilling people?

In other words, is the claim that a people have consented to be governed by their existing government falsifiable?  Take the U.S. government:  Have the people governed by it given consent?  If so, how and when did they do that?  Is there a realistic way that the people could tell the government that it doesn't consent to be governed?  If they did tell the U.S. government that, what would the U.S. government then do?

Consent of the governed is a fine idea.  I'm wondering if it has ever been a reality. 


Consent to be governed is given by people who go to the polls and vote. If less than half the people go to the polls then in my opinion that consent hasn't been granted to government.

But that doesn't propose any alternative and neither do libertarians propose anything better that could be put into practice. So far at least.

Libertarians should at least propose some other method of granting or not granting government the right to govern.
We, as libertarians must move forward with real ideas and stop treading water with impossible solutions for problems. Or imagined problems?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
SnarkySack
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 2986
Location: Republic of Me
Joined: Sep 11th, 2017
Re: Is Consent of the Governed Falsifiable?
Reply #2 - Jan 31st, 2018 at 12:12pm
Print Post  
Don_G wrote on Jan 31st, 2018 at 11:56am:
Consent to be governed is given by people who go to the polls and vote. If less than half the people go to the polls then in my opinion that consent hasn't been granted to government.


A very logical conclusion. 

Quote:
But that doesn't propose any alternative and neither do libertarians propose anything better that could be put into practice. So far at least.

Libertarians should at least propose some other method of granting or not granting government the right to govern.


Very true, but we won't try to solve a problem unless we first recognize that it exists. 

Quote:
We, as libertarians must move forward with real ideas and stop treading water with impossible solutions for problems. Or imagined problems?


Determining whether it is a real or imaginary problem is the purpose of this thread.  You have contributed well.


  

I used to be burnsred . . .
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Don_G
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 9847
Location: British Columbia
Joined: May 8th, 2017
Re: Is Consent of the Governed Falsifiable?
Reply #3 - Jan 31st, 2018 at 12:17pm
Print Post  
SnarkySack wrote on Jan 31st, 2018 at 12:12pm:
A very logical conclusion. 


Very true, but we won't try to solve a problem unless we first recognize that it exists. 


Determining whether it is a real or imaginary problem is the purpose of this thread.  You have contributed well.




I think the answer to your questions is settled, as you have accepted my first comment as a valid proposal. It seems clear to me that no libertarian is going to make an alternative proposal.

Unfortunately, that demonstrates that libertarians are merely blowing smoke up a dead dog's ass.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Billie
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 29286
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Is Consent of the Governed Falsifiable?
Reply #4 - Jan 31st, 2018 at 2:26pm
Print Post  
SnarkySack wrote on Jan 31st, 2018 at 11:41am:
Consent of the governed is the standard by which we determine that a government is or is not legitimate.  So does that require that such consent be expressed and not assumed?  Does it also need to be expressed in a way such that if consent is not given or is withdrawn that that the government would recognize its own illegitimacy?
Yes, a government constituted by a law that the people have approved has been given consent to operate in whatever way that the people have approved.

As long as the people retain the right to alter the grant of power to the government, the government continues to operate by the granted consent.

This does not speak to usurpation of power by government so as to act outside the grant of consent.

You look at the welfare/warfare state and see that the government is acting outside of it's granted powers, and I agree, but that does not mean that somehow the grant of power to raise revenue for the legitimate assigned duties of the government has become illegitimate or void, or that the power to declare war and pursue it has become outside the powers consented to.

Yes, consent to any of the granted powers can be withdrawn or altered, and the very structure of the government can be changed. See the Constitution, Article V.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
The Opposition
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 6531
Joined: Apr 30th, 2014
Re: Is Consent of the Governed Falsifiable?
Reply #5 - Jan 31st, 2018 at 3:16pm
Print Post  
SnarkySack wrote on Jan 31st, 2018 at 11:41am:
In other words, is the claim that a people have consented to be governed by their existing government falsifiable?


I believe so, yes.

SnarkySack wrote on Jan 31st, 2018 at 11:41am:
Take the U.S. government:  Have the people governed by it given consent?


A lot of people don't. They object to the US government by doing things like kneeling for the pledge. It makes me angry because the truth is that I love the government. I owe it my life. But you can see that when people are protesting, sometimes nonviolently and sometimes violently, they're expressing their nonconsent.

The Founding Fathers expressed their nonconsent to be governed by the British by rebelling.

SnarkySack wrote on Jan 31st, 2018 at 11:41am:
If they did tell the U.S. government that, what would the U.S. government then do?


Ideally, the government must relinquish all power over them. They can no longer be taxed, for example.

In practice this would be pretty bad.

SnarkySack wrote on Jan 31st, 2018 at 11:41am:
Consent of the governed is a fine idea.  I'm wondering if it has ever been a reality.


I don't think so, mostly because it wouldn't work. In the Past I have read that people formed burghs precisely by agreeing to the rules, but even if the population was low enough to make cities like this, the children born into them would stop consenting in order not to pay taxes, and you can't just put them off their private property.
  

Making Sci-Fi great again since 2063.

Not taking Jeff seriously until he admits this is animal abuse (which he says should be illegal): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WE-IT7_CaE4
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Billie
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 29286
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Is Consent of the Governed Falsifiable?
Reply #6 - Jan 31st, 2018 at 5:09pm
Print Post  
The Opposition wrote on Jan 31st, 2018 at 3:16pm:
I don't think so, mostly because it wouldn't work.
Is this the final word, that no government can ever govern by consent?

That tyrannical government is foreordained?

Only in your dreams lizard.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Don_G
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 9847
Location: British Columbia
Joined: May 8th, 2017
Re: Is Consent of the Governed Falsifiable?
Reply #7 - Jan 31st, 2018 at 7:59pm
Print Post  
SnarkySack wrote on Jan 31st, 2018 at 12:12pm:
A very logical conclusion. 


Very true, but we won't try to solve a problem unless we first recognize that it exists. 


Determining whether it is a real or imaginary problem is the purpose of this thread.  You have contributed well.



I always contribute well when it's kept serious. I thought this -new you- was just an idea of how to fuk with me because i'm your best enemy on account of our opposing politics. If  it's to shut Jeff down when he goes nutso on us then I'm with you.

there's a high possibility of Jeff conforming because he needs attention a lot more than having to make a point.

I hope you stick to it!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
SnarkySack
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 2986
Location: Republic of Me
Joined: Sep 11th, 2017
Re: Is Consent of the Governed Falsifiable?
Reply #8 - Jan 31st, 2018 at 8:38pm
Print Post  
Billie wrote on Jan 31st, 2018 at 2:26pm:
Yes, a government constituted by a law that the people have approved has been given consent to operate in whatever way that the people have approved.

As long as the people retain the right to alter the grant of power to the government, the government continues to operate by the granted consent.

This does not speak to usurpation of power by government so as to act outside the grant of consent.

You look at the welfare/warfare state and see that the government is acting outside of it's granted powers, and I agree, but that does not mean that somehow the grant of power to raise revenue for the legitimate assigned duties of the government has become illegitimate or void, or that the power to declare war and pursue it has become outside the powers consented to.

Yes, consent to any of the granted powers can be withdrawn or altered, and the very structure of the government can be changed. See the Constitution, Article V.


Well, stated.  Especially the part I blued and bolded.  Is that your phrase?  It's brilliant.

I don't see using the process of amending the constitution to be a realistic and feasible way for people to express any lack of consent to be governed.  I also don't see where the people existing today have consented to be governed by the governments existing today in the United States.  Amending the constitution is done by those governments, not the people.  The constitution itself was created by those governments, not the other way around as much as we would like to think so.

What we have is the ability to vote for those who populate those governments, not the ability to decline to be governed by them.  When the constitution was formed, only a small fraction of the people were even allowed to vote, so even by the logic that voting equals consent, consent of the governed wasn't realized until the 1970's at least.  But even if all the people were allowed to vote, they still could not withdraw the presumed consent that governments now work under.  It would take far more than just a majority of voters to work any change on the constitution.  The process of amendment is designed to be slow, unwieldy and to put many layers between the governed and their primary governing document.

Not one person in a hundred could have said that the people can theoretically get rid of governments through the amendment process.   You are elite in that respect.  As the court ruled in the Miranda case, a right is useless if a person doesn't know he has it.

Because of the secretive machinations and because of the low quality of government school civics lessons, the people know almost nothing about their governments.   So my first criteria is not met.

My second criteria is not met because of the near impossibility of expressing withdrawal of the presumed consent in a way that our governments would honor.

One question I did want to ask:

Is consent of the governed individual or collective?



   
« Last Edit: Jan 31st, 2018 at 10:29pm by SnarkySack »  

I used to be burnsred . . .
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
SnarkySack
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 2986
Location: Republic of Me
Joined: Sep 11th, 2017
Re: Is Consent of the Governed Falsifiable?
Reply #9 - Jan 31st, 2018 at 9:06pm
Print Post  
The Opposition wrote on Jan 31st, 2018 at 3:16pm:
I believe so, yes.


A lot of people don't. They object to the US government by doing things like kneeling for the pledge. It makes me angry because the truth is that I love the government. I owe it my life. But you can see that when people are protesting, sometimes nonviolently and sometimes violently, they're expressing their nonconsent.

The Founding Fathers expressed their nonconsent to be governed by the British by rebelling.


That worked out well for them.  The people and governments of the Confederate states attempted to express withdrawal of presumed consent even at the cost of their lives and our constitutional governments took their lives instead of accepting their withdrawal of consent.


Quote:
Ideally, the government must relinquish all power over them. They can no longer be taxed, for example.

In practice this would be pretty bad.


Government is a tar baby.  Except this tar baby is not only impossible to get rid of, it is endlessly hungry and constantly crying for more.

Quote:
I don't think so, mostly because it wouldn't work. In the Past I have read that people formed burghs precisely by agreeing to the rules, but even if the population was low enough to make cities like this, the children born into them would stop consenting in order not to pay taxes, and you can't just put them off their private property.


I'm starting to think that the idea of consent is antithetical to the idea of government.

  

I used to be burnsred . . .
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 13
Send TopicPrint
 
Libertarian's ForumLibertarian's ForumFreedom Forum › Is Consent of the Governed Falsifiable?
Libertarian's Forum

Libertarian's Forum Information Rules, Agreement and Privacy Policy