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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Is Consent of the Governed Falsifiable? (Read 923 times)
SnarkySack
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Re: Is Consent of the Governed Falsifiable?
Reply #10 - Jan 31st, 2018 at 9:11pm
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Don_G wrote on Jan 31st, 2018 at 7:59pm:
I always contribute well when it's kept serious. I thought this -new you- was just an idea of how to fuk with me because i'm your best enemy on account of our opposing politics. If  it's to shut Jeff down when he goes nutso on us then I'm with you.

there's a high possibility of Jeff conforming because he needs attention a lot more than having to make a point.



Jeff often makes excellent contributions to this forum.  I hope my new and improved posting style helps that continue.

Quote:
I hope you stick to it!


I hate to take a chance on jinxing it, but I've noticed that Kaz' posts have dropped off to nothing since I've taken the pledge.  It's a work in progress as we all are.  Give it a chance, even if I didn't get it perfect the first hour.


  

I used to be burnsred . . .
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The Opposition
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Re: Is Consent of the Governed Falsifiable?
Reply #11 - Jan 31st, 2018 at 10:16pm
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SnarkySack wrote on Jan 31st, 2018 at 9:06pm:
I'm starting to think that the idea of consent is antithetical to the idea of government.


It's a tough squeeze. That much is certain.

No criminal agrees to be imprisoned, but it is possible that everyone agrees to be imprisoned if they turn criminal.
  

Making Sci-Fi great again since 2063.

Not taking Jeff seriously until he admits this is animal abuse (which he says should be illegal): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WE-IT7_CaE4
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Billie
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Re: Is Consent of the Governed Falsifiable?
Reply #12 - Feb 1st, 2018 at 9:09am
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SnarkySack wrote on Jan 31st, 2018 at 8:38pm:
I don't see using the process of amending the constitution to be a realistic and feasible way for people to express any lack of consent to be governed.  I also don't see where the people existing today have consented to be governed by the governments existing today in the United States.  Amending the constitution is done by those governments, not the people.
The amendment process is done through a democratic process by people appointed by a democratic process by democratically elected state legislators.

Many people at the time of the ratification of the original Constitution didn't like it any more than you do.

In each new generation of Americans, people are born who grow to believe that America should be governed by pure democracy, or by nothing at all, or by authoritarians masquerading as Communists or national Socialists. Those people will not give their consent to our existing form of government.

They don't have to.

The Constitution is our government's grant of power and the list of duties and obligations government is to perform using those granted powers.

As long as the government stays within it's granted powers, it is operating within the consent that has been granted by "the people".
  
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Billie
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Re: Is Consent of the Governed Falsifiable?
Reply #13 - Feb 1st, 2018 at 9:15am
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SnarkySack wrote on Jan 31st, 2018 at 8:38pm:
One question I did want to ask:

Is consent of the governed individual or collective?
Neither. Our government is granted consent to operate by a legal document (the Constitution) that was approved and can only be changed by a process that allows the people's wishes to be realized through a careful democratic process.

When you and your friends are deciding where to go out to eat, is the "consent" of your group of friends to go to a Chinese restaurant individual or collective?
  
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kaz
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Re: Is Consent of the Governed Falsifiable?
Reply #14 - Feb 1st, 2018 at 10:02am
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SnarkySack wrote on Jan 31st, 2018 at 11:41am:
Consent of the governed is the standard by which we determine that a government is or is not legitimate.  So does that require that such consent be expressed and not assumed?  Does it also need to be expressed in a way such that if consent is not given or is withdrawn that that the government would recognize its own illegitimacy?  Must a government composed of moral people then stop attempting to govern an unwilling people?

In other words, is the claim that a people have consented to be governed by their existing government falsifiable?  Take the U.S. government:  Have the people governed by it given consent?  If so, how and when did they do that?  Is there a realistic way that the people could tell the government that it doesn't consent to be governed?  If they did tell the U.S. government that, what would the U.S. government then do?

Consent of the governed is a fine idea.  I'm wondering if it has ever been a reality. 


You should do some reading by Locke, the founders and other classic liberals.  But what it boils down to is consent of the governed cannot be voted on, that's just tyranny of the majority.

When government no longer acts in your interest, you have the right to overthrow the government and replace it with one that does.  I no longer consent to be governed by our government.  It's a tyrannical government that ignored the bounds that the people put on them, they are illegitimate.  However, I can't overthrow the government because the people in this country do overwhelmingly consent.  Nothing will change until that changes
  

Greg Gutfeld - I became a conservative by being around liberals and I became a libertarian by being around conservatives

Matt Stone - I hate conservatives, but I really f'ing hate liberals
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kaz
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Re: Is Consent of the Governed Falsifiable?
Reply #15 - Feb 1st, 2018 at 10:05am
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Billie wrote on Feb 1st, 2018 at 9:15am:
Neither. Our government is granted consent to operate by a legal document (the Constitution) that was approved and can only be changed by a process that allows the people's wishes to be realized through a careful democratic process.

When you and your friends are deciding where to go out to eat, is the "consent" of your group of friends to go to a Chinese restaurant individual or collective?


Don't bother with Jeff's stupid shit on the subject, Burnsie.  He thinks your consent can be given by your great, great, great grandfather.  He totally doesn't grasp Classic Liberalism.  Consent can only be given by you.  And your consent only means now.  How do you know if in 10 years you will deem the government as tyrannical?

I talk about the Constitution because I think the founders got it mostly right, not because my great, great, great grandfather thought they got it right
  

Greg Gutfeld - I became a conservative by being around liberals and I became a libertarian by being around conservatives

Matt Stone - I hate conservatives, but I really f'ing hate liberals
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kaz
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Re: Is Consent of the Governed Falsifiable?
Reply #16 - Feb 1st, 2018 at 10:11am
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SnarkySack wrote on Jan 31st, 2018 at 9:11pm:
I hate to take a chance on jinxing it, but I've noticed that Kaz' posts have dropped off to nothing since I've taken the pledge.  It's a work in progress as we all are.  Give it a chance, even if I didn't get it perfect the first hour.




What pledge?  I actually dropped off because you and Jeff were annoying the shit out of me.  For different reasons.  I was tired of you saying you want voluntary taxes claiming it's a different system when it isn't and screaming and stamping that it is different without backing it up with any cogent explanation of how it's different.  You haven't given any example of a single thing I could do in your system and not pay taxes that I would have to pay today.

So I asked Land?  You said yes, voluntary.  Oh, but government will protect you if you pay for it.  What if you don't?  Then they'll give it to someone else.  So that isn't voluntary.  You also said everything in there now can be in that, defense, whatever government needs to protect it.

Airwaves?  Oh, that operates like land

Cars?  Only if you want to drive them on roads.

What about my business?  Do I have to register my ownership for government protection of my property rights?  Of course in your system I would.

There is no difference between your system and what we have today.  The more productive a member of society you are, the more you pay.  The only difference is your marketing literature.

And Jeff was following me around asking me stupid questions about things I didn't say because he was in an ODD and alcohol fueled snit and wasn't capable of processing anything I said
  

Greg Gutfeld - I became a conservative by being around liberals and I became a libertarian by being around conservatives

Matt Stone - I hate conservatives, but I really f'ing hate liberals
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Billie
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Re: Is Consent of the Governed Falsifiable?
Reply #17 - Feb 1st, 2018 at 10:24am
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kaz wrote on Feb 1st, 2018 at 10:05am:
Don't bother with Jeff's stupid shit on the subject, Burnsie.  He thinks your consent can be given...
How do you propose that any government can operate with consent?

I understand what you are saying, that you never had an opportunity to personally grant your approval of the system of government created by the Constitution...

What I don't understand is how, if the personal consent of everyone is required, how any government could ever be legitimate in your eyes.
  
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kaz
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Re: Is Consent of the Governed Falsifiable?
Reply #18 - Feb 1st, 2018 at 10:30am
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Billie wrote on Feb 1st, 2018 at 10:24am:
How do you propose that any government can operate with consent?

I understand what you are saying, that you never had an opportunity to personally grant your approval of the system of government created by the Constitution...

What I don't understand is how, if the personal consent of everyone is required, how any government could ever be legitimate in your eyes.


I just said that while I have removed my personal consent to be governed by our government, I recognize that the people overwhelmingly do.

Even people who think there are things seriously wrong with what are government is doing still solidly consent to our government's rule, you argue for that all the time.

Consent isn't a vote.  It's an overall feeling of the people.   Voting is just tyranny of the majority.  I see only a small percentage of us who actually don't consent to our government.

Consent doesn't mean you like the government or agree with it.  It means that you accept the results of the process
  

Greg Gutfeld - I became a conservative by being around liberals and I became a libertarian by being around conservatives

Matt Stone - I hate conservatives, but I really f'ing hate liberals
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Billie
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Re: Is Consent of the Governed Falsifiable?
Reply #19 - Feb 1st, 2018 at 10:43am
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kaz wrote on Feb 1st, 2018 at 10:02am:
When government no longer acts in your interest, you have the right to overthrow the government and replace it with one that does.  I no longer consent to be governed by our government.  It's a tyrannical government that ignored the bounds that the people put on them, they are illegitimate.  However, I can't overthrow the government because the people in this country do overwhelmingly consent.  Nothing will change until that changes
Am I reading this correctly in that you consent to the form of our government, the system created by the Constitution that limits the government to specific enumerated powers, but you expect to have that government, which you call a legitimate government, that stays within those bounds always serve your interests?

I see also that you claim that people in America "overwhelmingly consent" to what our government is doing now...

How do see that their "consent" has been/is granted?
  
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