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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Is Consent of the Governed Falsifiable? (Read 1129 times)
kaz
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Re: Is Consent of the Governed Falsifiable?
Reply #100 - Feb 6th, 2018 at 11:05am
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Snarky Sack wrote on Feb 6th, 2018 at 10:40am:
I'm not rewriting history or failing to grasp cultural changes as far as I know, but I'll be glad to hear how you think I am. 


Read my post, I directly said how you're doing that

Snarky Sack wrote on Feb 6th, 2018 at 10:40am:
Of course the culture of the times influenced the vote.  Part of that culture was the disenfranchisement of the overwhelming majority of citizens, is the point.  Part of that culture was also the paradigm in which women "belonged" to their fathers until their fathers "gave" them to their husbands.  Again, not a culture in which the non-voters can be said to consent


Thanks for the condescending lecture on something we didn't disagree on
  

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Snarky Sack
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Re: Is Consent of the Governed Falsifiable?
Reply #101 - Feb 6th, 2018 at 11:40am
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kaz wrote on Feb 6th, 2018 at 11:05am:
Read my post, I directly said how you're doing that


Thanks for the condescending lecture on something we didn't disagree on


My bad.  I thought I was responding to Jeff who does disagree.


  

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Jeff
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Re: Is Consent of the Governed Falsifiable?
Reply #102 - Feb 6th, 2018 at 3:17pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Feb 6th, 2018 at 10:01am:
First of all, we will never know how Blacks or Women felt about politics because they had no voice.
Women of the day wrote lots of letters. Free blacks in the north made their opinions known.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Is Consent of the Governed Falsifiable?
Reply #103 - Feb 6th, 2018 at 3:20pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Feb 6th, 2018 at 10:01am:
Women tend to think of government as the good husband/father they either have or wish they had.

That's a generalization that I don't believe is true. Most women were and are partners in marriage and many have leading roles in the marriage. Libertarian women in particular wil find your condescension insulting.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Is Consent of the Governed Falsifiable?
Reply #104 - Feb 6th, 2018 at 3:23pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Feb 6th, 2018 at 10:01am:
As far as Black citizens, I know we have a very different take on whether blacks had the power to consent.  I don't believe that any slave consents to anything so there was no consent from them who were the majority in several states.


Black citizens had the same rights as white citizens, but as I said, the rights of slaves were denied.
  
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kaz
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Re: Is Consent of the Governed Falsifiable?
Reply #105 - Feb 6th, 2018 at 3:28pm
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Jeff wrote on Feb 6th, 2018 at 3:20pm:
That's a generalization that I don't believe is true. Most women were and are partners in marriage and many have leading roles in the marriage. Libertarian women in particular wil find your condescension insulting.


He's talking about single women, not married women, Homey.

And they vote exactly as he said
  

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kaz
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Re: Is Consent of the Governed Falsifiable?
Reply #106 - Feb 6th, 2018 at 3:30pm
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Jeff wrote on Feb 6th, 2018 at 3:23pm:
Black citizens had the same rights as white citizens, but as I said, the rights of slaves were denied.


Wow, bad things happened in history by people who are dead now.  That's just stunning news, let's obsess about that.

A tiny percent of the world history of slavery was in the United States.  Yes, it was bad.  It was always opposed by a vast number of Americans.  Your great great grandfather should be ashamed of himself.  My great, great grandparents were all in the North and opposed slavery.  One of my great great grandparents fought in a Michigan regiment against it.

So where does this take us now, Jeff?
  

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Jeff
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Re: Is Consent of the Governed Falsifiable?
Reply #107 - Feb 6th, 2018 at 3:33pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Feb 6th, 2018 at 10:01am:
I guess our fundamental difference is that I see consenting to government as a deliberate action that requires being informed and having the power to also choose not to consent.  I believe that your idea is that consent is implied/presumed/understood unless people are actively attempting to overthrow the government.
Our government has been granted consent to create itself and operate according to the Constitution. It's the legal document that grants the consent.

I believe it's kaz who thinks that the only way to change our government is armed revolt.

My idea is that the Constitution remains a valid grant of consent unless it is altered by the process of Article V, at which time the grant of consent is either changed or can be removed.

As you may have noticed, I believe that individual and ongoing consent to the grant of power embodied in the Constitution is no more necessary than is individual and ongoing consent to any law.

State Constitutions grant lawmaking powers to the governments created by those Constitutions, and laws that are enacted according to the specified procedures are valid whether everybody agrees or not.

kaz' notion that unanimous consent was not a requirement to ratify the Constitution and that the Constitution is therefore invalid essentially eliminates the possibility of having any legitimate government or law.
  
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kaz
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Re: Is Consent of the Governed Falsifiable?
Reply #108 - Feb 6th, 2018 at 3:58pm
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Jeff wrote on Feb 6th, 2018 at 3:33pm:
Our government has been granted consent to create itself and operate according to the Constitution. It's the legal document that grants the consent


Yes, 230 years ago it was.  That stopped being relevant 230 years ago as consent is required in an ongoing basis

Jeff wrote on Feb 6th, 2018 at 3:33pm:
I believe it's kaz who thinks that the only way to change our government is armed revolt


I didn't say armed revolt specifically.  You made that up.  But whatever is required

Jeff wrote on Feb 6th, 2018 at 3:33pm:
My idea is that the Constitution remains a valid grant of consent unless it is altered by the process of Article V, at which time the grant of consent is either changed or can be removed.

As you may have noticed, I believe that individual and ongoing consent to the grant of power embodied in the Constitution is no more necessary than is individual and ongoing consent to any law.

State Constitutions grant lawmaking powers to the governments created by those Constitutions, and laws that are enacted according to the specified procedures are valid whether everybody agrees or not.


You can believe whatever you want, but you shouldn't use the word "consent" since that is a classic liberal concept and you're not one and none of this is what classic liberals mean by consent

Jeff wrote on Feb 6th, 2018 at 3:33pm:
kaz' notion that unanimous consent was not a requirement to ratify the Constitution and that the Constitution is therefore invalid essentially eliminates the possibility of having any legitimate government or law.


Now that's a complete and utter strawman.  I don't even know what you're talking about
  

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Snarky Sack
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Re: Is Consent of the Governed Falsifiable?
Reply #109 - Feb 6th, 2018 at 5:19pm
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Jeff wrote on Feb 6th, 2018 at 3:33pm:
Our government has been granted consent to create itself and operate according to the Constitution. It's the legal document that grants the consent.


That is reasoning in a circle. A document cannot grant consent. People may grant consent using a document as the expression of that consent. But that did not happen unless you define “the people” as the white male landowners. It’s not even close to reasonable to believe that slaves consented to a constitution that protected slavery because their masters approved it.

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I believe it's kaz who thinks that the only way to change our government is armed revolt.

My idea is that the Constitution remains a valid grant of consent unless it is altered by the process of Article V, at which time the grant of consent is either changed or can be removed.

As you may have noticed, I believe that individual and ongoing consent to the grant of power embodied in the Constitution is no more necessary than is individual and ongoing consent to any law.

State Constitutions grant lawmaking powers to the governments created by those Constitutions, and laws that are enacted according to the specified procedures are valid whether everybody agrees or not.

kaz' notion that unanimous consent was not a requirement to ratify the Constitution and that the Constitution is therefore invalid essentially eliminates the possibility of having any legitimate government or law.


That may ultimately be the lesson of this thread.  You’ve never explained your objection to my idea of simply including consent on a ballot. But I understand Kaz’ Point about tyranny of the majority. I can’t buy that my consent is ongoing due to my ancestors presumed consent. Consent of the governed may be impossible.

So we may need to rethink whether consent of the governed is the right standard by which to judge a government’s legitimacy.
  

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