Libertarian's Forum
Libertarian Forum to discuss politics and free market economics.
Libertarian's ForumLibertarian's ForumFreedom Forum › Proof of the Deep State?
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2]  Send TopicPrint
Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Proof of the Deep State? (Read 195 times)
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 26215
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Proof of the Deep State?
Reply #10 - Feb 1st, 2018 at 10:01am
Print Post  
BobK71 wrote on Jan 31st, 2018 at 2:00pm:
So is this proof that there *is* a shadowy deep state with only a small membership, which is not only more powerful than anything else, but which must be internally unified before their members can go out and implement decisions in lock step, without confusion?
You've found their weakness Bob, they are not and never will be unified. They will always have palace coups and usurpers and dissidents and a steady supply of megalomaniacs who want to rule as Emperors of the World.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Don_G
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 7948
Location: British Columbia
Joined: May 8th, 2017
Re: Proof of the Deep State?
Reply #11 - Feb 1st, 2018 at 12:57pm
Print Post  
BobK71 wrote on Feb 1st, 2018 at 9:38am:
On that I don't have any special information.  They never seem to invite me to meetings!   All I can do is to piece together public information, hopefully in a new light.


I was asking for your perception on what the deep state actually is or who it is in general? Not any specific names.

Was the deep state the neocons in Bush2's administration? Is it something like an equivalent group now in the Trump admin?

I am of the opinion that it's more like the CIA, FBI, or other police or intelligence orgs.

Until we're on the same wavelength on that, I can't begin to address your further remarks in this interesting conversation.

To use the current example, it appears that a group such as was Bush's neocons, but under the Trump admin, would be opposed to what I imagine is the deep state.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BobK71
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 512
Joined: Jun 12th, 2015
Re: Proof of the Deep State?
Reply #12 - Feb 1st, 2018 at 2:01pm
Print Post  
Jeff wrote on Feb 1st, 2018 at 9:51am:
Authoritarian governments throughout history have set themselves up with Government Central Banks or their equivalent, and Emperors and Kings have been debasing money since prehistoric times.

All that resulted directly in the prohibition in the U.S. Constitution of making anything but gold or silver "money".


True, though the Western global empires have leveraged finance (and have had to do so) to a much greater degree, and much more innovatively.

Of the other states, China from about 1000 to about 1500 was probably the one that came closest to the modern West.  The others were far behind.  The government pretty much printed paper money (initially backed by commodity money, and eventually becoming fiat) and used the law (eventually using the death penalty) to force people not to use any other form of money.  Inflation was very high.  This was fundamentally not much more sophisticated than the Japanese 'military money' during World War II that soldiers used to 'buy' goods from conquered populations -- something the Japanese postwar government refused to recognize!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BobK71
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 512
Joined: Jun 12th, 2015
Re: Proof of the Deep State?
Reply #13 - Feb 1st, 2018 at 2:14pm
Print Post  
Jeff wrote on Feb 1st, 2018 at 10:01am:
You've found their weakness Bob, they are not and never will be unified. They will always have palace coups and usurpers and dissidents and a steady supply of megalomaniacs who want to rule as Emperors of the World.


Don't know.  If their push to make money out of cryptos fails, I might begin to believe you.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BobK71
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 512
Joined: Jun 12th, 2015
Re: Proof of the Deep State?
Reply #14 - Feb 1st, 2018 at 2:59pm
Print Post  
Don_G wrote on Feb 1st, 2018 at 12:57pm:
I was asking for your perception on what the deep state actually is or who it is in general? Not any specific names.

Was the deep state the neocons in Bush2's administration? Is it something like an equivalent group now in the Trump admin?

I am of the opinion that it's more like the CIA, FBI, or other police or intelligence orgs.

Until we're on the same wavelength on that, I can't begin to address your further remarks in this interesting conversation.

To use the current example, it appears that a group such as was Bush's neocons, but under the Trump admin, would be opposed to what I imagine is the deep state.


Seriously, my knowledge of our 'public servants' is not good enough for that.  For all we know, these could be a small number of technocrats with mid-level titles who exert influence because of their financial expertise.  They might not even be rich.  As the examples show, they do seem to need to stick together after a major decision is made, and they do know how to get the top public figures to do what is needed.

That said, the deep state certainly doesn't control all major decisions intimately.  Many major mistakes have been made from the empire's point of view, from invading Iraq in 2003 to imposing big reparations on Germany after World War I.  What the deep state (as I have defined it) seems to be good at, is doing the quiet, long-term planning and nudging, and having an indisputably solid knowledge of how the world system really works.

How else, for example, can you convince someone like Woodrow Wilson (re-elected president exactly 100 years before Trump's election) to campaign on having kept the US out of World War I, and then turn 180 degrees right after re-election?  By reading him the riot act, that for imperial-financial reasons, the entire state-bank alliance would be toast if Germany won on the continent.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 26215
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Proof of the Deep State?
Reply #15 - Feb 1st, 2018 at 3:02pm
Print Post  
BobK71 wrote on Feb 1st, 2018 at 2:14pm:
Don't know.  If their push to make money out of cryptos fails, I might begin to believe you.
What I understand to be elements of the Deep State in the U.S. are the Senators-and-Representatives-for-Life and the bureaucrats they purportedly control in Congress, and also the entrenched bureaucracies in the Executive branch of which there are many (and they all seem to have S.W.A.T. teams), of particular importance being the various Agencies supposed dedicated to intelligence and enforcement, such as the NSA, CIA, FBI, DEA, ATFE, TSA, Treasury etc. etc.

Not to forget the entrenched bureaucracies in the various branches of the military and their intelligence and enforcement agencies.

These various virtually independent and powerful bureaucracies are not united in either their goals or their actions.

You can expand that to extend it to the various virtually independent and powerful governmental organizations in other nations, and don't forget to include things like the UN and the EU and all of their virtually independent and powerful Agencies.

None of them are united in their goals or operations either, although they make temporary alliances while seeking advantage for themselves.

"Swamp" is an apt metaphor for all of them collectively, and expecting them to do anything other than fight each other for power and money and influence is about as sensible as expecting  the frogs to unite with the snapping turtles and alligators to protect the leeches.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BobK71
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 512
Joined: Jun 12th, 2015
Re: Proof of the Deep State?
Reply #16 - Feb 1st, 2018 at 9:28pm
Print Post  
Jeff wrote on Feb 1st, 2018 at 3:02pm:
These various virtually independent and powerful bureaucracies are not united in either their goals or their actions.


The problem for the empire is that the people who inhabit these forces (powerful as they may be) don't understand money and finance.  To carry out the long-sighted projects I mentioned in the original post, you need a unified, small team of well-connected experts in this realm.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 26215
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Proof of the Deep State?
Reply #17 - Feb 2nd, 2018 at 8:22am
Print Post  
BobK71 wrote on Feb 1st, 2018 at 9:28pm:
The problem for the empire is that the people who inhabit these forces (powerful as they may be) don't understand money and finance.  To carry out the long-sighted projects I mentioned in the original post, you need a unified, small team of well-connected experts in this realm.
Some of them most certainly do. You think no one in the Treasury Dept. or the Fed knows what they are doing?

Clearly they are gathering wealth and power to themselves, but they are also enabling the welfare/warfare state, which serves many others as a means to wealth and power, but they are not united in any real goals beyond their own wealth and power. There is no real American Empire because the goals of the various elements are not all the same goals. The 'welfare' part of the empire wants to use their power (and Fed created money) for very different goals than the 'warfare' part of the empire.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BobK71
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 512
Joined: Jun 12th, 2015
Re: Proof of the Deep State?
Reply #18 - Feb 4th, 2018 at 7:54pm
Print Post  
Jeff wrote on Feb 2nd, 2018 at 8:22am:
Some of them most certainly do. You think no one in the Treasury Dept. or the Fed knows what they are doing?

Those who do are a minority in the high levels of the military-intelligence-diplomatic-financial bureaucracy.  (This points to some kind of organizational structure that allows the minority experts to have an overriding voice BTW.)  And I doubt even they know the whole picture.  John Maynard Keynes was flying high in the UK Treasury and played key roles in the world system at the time.  Yet he so poorly understood the imperial machinery that he bet his own money on Germany during the interwar years and lost big.  (He was not cynical enough to realize Germany was going to be victimized, one way or another.)

Jeff wrote on Feb 2nd, 2018 at 8:22am:
Clearly they are gathering wealth and power to themselves, but they are also enabling the welfare/warfare state, which serves many others as a means to wealth and power, but they are not united in any real goals beyond their own wealth and power. There is no real American Empire because the goals of the various elements are not all the same goals. The 'welfare' part of the empire wants to use their power (and Fed created money) for very different goals than the 'warfare' part of the empire.


The world money/finance system is a gigantic poker game in that deception and posturing are a major feature.  If America (or Britain, or the Netherlands) doesn't decide in a unified way if it should raise or fold, and have a long-range strategy and execution, there's no way the empire would last a century or more.

This is not to say the plurality you describe isn't real.  But the money system has a central position.  When that is firmly under control, the more peripheral forces can be allowed freedom to play against each other.  It will make the world think we have a truly open and competitive system, and enhance the position of our money in turn.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2] 
Send TopicPrint
 
Libertarian's ForumLibertarian's ForumFreedom Forum › Proof of the Deep State?
Libertarian's Forum

Libertarian's Forum Information Rules, Agreement and Privacy Policy