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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) So are All Libertarians Comfortable with The Right to Discriminate? (Read 1754 times)
kaz
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Re: So are All Libertarians Comfortable with The Right to Discriminate?
Reply #10 - Feb 2nd, 2018 at 9:20am
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SnarkySack wrote on Feb 1st, 2018 at 10:39pm:
Well, no.  I'm not at all comfortable with that.

Refusing to serve people at a business because of their skin color or other protected category is such an offensive act that it seems much more natural for it to be banned than for it not to be banned.

The free market idea that such laws are not needed because discrimination leads to loss of profits is only partially true.  It sounds good but the sad fact is that there is also money to be made by catering to the kind of vile people who would patronize a restaurant or bar that either banned certain races or was exclusive to certain races. 

Is everyone on board with the idea that a libertarian government means that they are perfectly free to discriminate and to advertise their discrimination with signs that read "No ________ s Allowed?"







From an anarchist?  Seriously?

Even the idea that it's a legitimate power of the government to force citizens to do business with each other is an anathema to anyone who believes in liberty.  Think about that.  Government at the point of a gun telling you to do business with anyone doesn't make your skin crawl?  That's sick
  

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kaz
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Re: So are All Libertarians Comfortable with The Right to Discriminate?
Reply #11 - Feb 2nd, 2018 at 9:24am
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The Opposition wrote on Feb 1st, 2018 at 10:45pm:
I don't think people should be allowed to discriminate against protected minorities


Another who constantly argues for anarchy who supports government pointing guns at citizens and forcing them to serve other citizens?  Seriously?

Sure, there are some redneck bars who may not serve blacks, but almost all businesses want customers badly.  Turning away paying customers after all the marketing and sales costs we have to get customers is insane and almost no one would do it.

I do think one thing though is that businesses that discriminate should be required to disclose that publicly so their other customers, vendors, etc. are aware of their policy.  Then they only can get in trouble for not following their policy.
  

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Re: So are All Libertarians Comfortable with The Right to Discriminate?
Reply #12 - Feb 2nd, 2018 at 9:47am
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businessess ought to have the right to discriminate, government should not.

I'm comfortable with this because if you look at situations were discrimination became a big part of the culture, Jim Crow, housing redlining, and Apartheid, they were enforced by the government and in the case of Jim Crow a well organized terrorist campaign. 

Market forces will make discrimination fade away if given the chance.
  
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SnarkySack
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Re: So are All Libertarians Comfortable with The Right to Discriminate?
Reply #13 - Feb 2nd, 2018 at 9:55am
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kaz wrote on Feb 2nd, 2018 at 9:20am:
From an anarchist?  Seriously?
No, I'm a minarchist, remember?  Maybe more on the mini wing of the minarchist line, but still a minarchist.

Quote:
Even the idea that it's a legitimate power of the government to force citizens to do business with each other is an anathema to anyone who believes in liberty.  Think about that.  Government at the point of a gun telling you to do business with anyone doesn't make your skin crawl?  That's sick


No, it makes me very uncomfortable.  But so does the idea of hospitals having a sign that says, "No ______ Treated Here!"  My question is whether other libertarians are having that same discomfort.  How do we treat people whose main attraction to the libertarian movement is that they will  be able to go back to the days of segregation and exclusion?  Do we welcome them and showcase or do we tell them they can ride with us, but in the back of the bus, please?

  

I used to be burnsred . . .
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kaz
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Re: So are All Libertarians Comfortable with The Right to Discriminate?
Reply #14 - Feb 2nd, 2018 at 10:02am
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SnarkySack wrote on Feb 2nd, 2018 at 9:55am:
No, I'm a minarchist, remember?  Maybe more on the mini wing of the minarchist line, but still a minarchist.


No, it makes me very uncomfortable.  But so does the idea of hospitals having a sign that says, "No ______ Treated Here!"  My question is whether other libertarians are having that same discomfort.  How do we treat people whose main attraction to the libertarian movement is that they will  be able to go back to the days of segregation and exclusion?  Do we welcome them and showcase or do we tell them they can ride with us, but in the back of the bus, please?



So in your contrived example where a hospital doesn't want to treat say blacks, you think it's a good idea that forcing them to treat blacks is a good idea for the blacks?

That you trust government to use force to compel citizens who have committed no crime to serve each other is hilarious after your opposition to mandatory taxes (sic).   

OK, sure, some very rare businesses would discriminate.  But it would almost never happen.  But you trust empowering government guns to decide when discrimination is allowed and not is unbelievable and total hypocrisy from everything else you've ever argued.

Government will abuse any power and the cost will far exceed any benefit.  Government has turned anti-discrimination into for example an endless tort casino driving up costs dramatically for everyone.  And for what?  A few cases where they could have walked across the street to their competitor.

I do agree that government should not be allowed to discriminate in the sense that you mean discriminate.  Everyone discriminates all the time.  You discriminate when you walk up to two women and hug the one of them you happen to be married to.

Also, government controlled monopolies should not be allowed to discriminate.
The Post Office, power companies, ....  Back to the hospital, if it's a public hospital than I do agree for the same reason.  But a private one?  Not at all.

When you decide to work for the government, that's a choice you make.  When you work for any private business, you never ceded your freedom to government
  

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Matt Stone - I hate conservatives, but I really f'ing hate liberals
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Re: So are All Libertarians Comfortable with The Right to Discriminate?
Reply #15 - Feb 2nd, 2018 at 11:32am
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In this topic, I am in agreement with Kaz and ahhell. 

To the rest of you, I have this question.  What if there is a disruptive person in a restaurant, does not the owner have the right to tell that person to leave before he loses other customers? I don't call that discrimination, as the person was allowed in the establishment to begin with.  It was his own behavior that got him kicked out.  To me, that's just good business sense.

What about a Christian baker that will not make a cake for a same sex wedding?  That's not discrimination either.  That's called "free exercise" of religion. 

What about a father that stops an abusive boy from dating his daughter?  Is that discrimination?  Or is that good parenting?

Do I have the right to decide what TV shows to watch?  Is that discrimination?  Or is that liberty? 

And what about abortion?  Is that not discrimination against the unborn? 

In my younger years, the word "discriminate" was seen as a positive.  And it was usually based on behavior. 

And what about a lifelong Republican or Democrat joining the Libertarian Party?  Is that discrimination?  You bet it is, and I'm proud of it.

Now, I do not believe we should discriminate against people for the color of their skin, or where they come from.  That's why I believe the U.S. Immigration Laws, besides being unconstitutional, are wrong.  We should not discriminate against people simply because they are from Mexico, like the bastard in the White House. 

In conclusion, sometimes discrimination is a positive thing, and sometimes it is not.  And I am doing all I can to get people to discriminate against the Republican and Democratic Parties.
  
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kaz
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Re: So are All Libertarians Comfortable with The Right to Discriminate?
Reply #16 - Feb 2nd, 2018 at 11:43am
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ahhell wrote on Feb 2nd, 2018 at 9:47am:
businessess ought to have the right to discriminate, government should not.

I'm comfortable with this because if you look at situations were discrimination became a big part of the culture, Jim Crow, housing redlining, and Apartheid, they were enforced by the government and in the case of Jim Crow a well organized terrorist campaign. 

Market forces will make discrimination fade away if given the chance.


Agreed.  Government rules foster discrimination.  First they enable "reverse" discrimination as if that's different than discrimination.  Second, they give companies rules to hide behind where you need to learn and manipulate rules rather than face market forces.

It's bizarre the idea that anyone would think that government would every say wow, we just want to help people who are actually discriminated against.  That never happens, they abuse every power creating a far higher cost to our liberty than any benefit we gain.  It's the nature of government.  That people would support that and call themselves a libertarian is even more bizarre.
  

Greg Gutfeld - I became a conservative by being around liberals and I became a libertarian by being around conservatives

Matt Stone - I hate conservatives, but I really f'ing hate liberals
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kaz
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Re: So are All Libertarians Comfortable with The Right to Discriminate?
Reply #17 - Feb 2nd, 2018 at 11:47am
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tomline wrote on Feb 2nd, 2018 at 11:32am:
In this topic, I am in agreement with Kaz and ahhell. 

To the rest of you, I have this question.  What if there is a disruptive person in a restaurant, does not the owner have the right to tell that person to leave before he loses other customers? I don't call that discrimination, as the person was allowed in the establishment to begin with.  It was his own behavior that got him kicked out.  To me, that's just good business sense.

What about a Christian baker that will not make a cake for a same sex wedding?  That's not discrimination either.  That's called "free exercise" of religion. 

What about a father that stops an abusive boy from dating his daughter?  Is that discrimination?  Or is that good parenting?

Do I have the right to decide what TV shows to watch?  Is that discrimination?  Or is that liberty? 

And what about abortion?  Is that not discrimination against the unborn? 

In my younger years, the word "discriminate" was seen as a positive.  And it was usually based on behavior. 

And what about a lifelong Republican or Democrat joining the Libertarian Party?  Is that discrimination?  You bet it is, and I'm proud of it.

Now, I do not believe we should discriminate against people for the color of their skin, or where they come from.  That's why I believe the U.S. Immigration Laws, besides being unconstitutional, are wrong.  We should not discriminate against people simply because they are from Mexico, like the bastard in the White House. 

In conclusion, sometimes discrimination is a positive thing, and sometimes it is not.  And I am doing all I can to get people to discriminate against the Republican and Democratic Parties.


That Mexican is here illegally because he ignored our immigration laws.

tomline:  OMG, it's because he's Mexican!

No, it's because he's here illegally ...

Also, your text is confusing because you conflate discrimination with illegal discrimination.  Going to a nursery school and picking up the one kid in the class who happens to be your daughter is discrimination.  Picking a ham sandwich for lunch is discrimination.

Our immigration laws should be to admit people who are the best and the brightest.  Giving priority to people who's first act in America is breaking our law is not in our interest.  And importing mostly lower class people isn't either.

Also, psst.  Lean over.  I have a secret.  Better educated tech people are mostly ... wait for it ... brown ...

Shocking, you didn't know that, huh?
  

Greg Gutfeld - I became a conservative by being around liberals and I became a libertarian by being around conservatives

Matt Stone - I hate conservatives, but I really f'ing hate liberals
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Don_G
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Re: So are All Libertarians Comfortable with The Right to Discriminate?
Reply #18 - Feb 2nd, 2018 at 12:21pm
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tomline wrote on Feb 2nd, 2018 at 11:32am:
In this topic, I am in agreement with Kaz and ahhell. 

To the rest of you, I have this question.  What if there is a disruptive person in a restaurant, does not the owner have the right to tell that person to leave before he loses other customers? I don't call that discrimination, as the person was allowed in the establishment to begin with.  It was his own behavior that got him kicked out.  To me, that's just good business sense.

What about a Christian baker that will not make a cake for a same sex wedding?  That's not discrimination either.  That's called "free exercise" of religion. 

What about a father that stops an abusive boy from dating his daughter?  Is that discrimination?  Or is that good parenting?

Do I have the right to decide what TV shows to watch?  Is that discrimination?  Or is that liberty? 

And what about abortion?  Is that not discrimination against the unborn? 

In my younger years, the word "discriminate" was seen as a positive.  And it was usually based on behavior. 

And what about a lifelong Republican or Democrat joining the Libertarian Party?  Is that discrimination?  You bet it is, and I'm proud of it.

Now, I do not believe we should discriminate against people for the color of their skin, or where they come from.  That's why I believe the U.S. Immigration Laws, besides being unconstitutional, are wrong.  We should not discriminate against people simply because they are from Mexico, like the bastard in the White House. 

In conclusion, sometimes discrimination is a positive thing, and sometimes it is not.  And I am doing all I can to get people to discriminate against the Republican and Democratic Parties.


Americans making an issue of such simple questions to answer, indicates a deep racism problem in your country.

Other countries seem to have moved on. Forget the civil war. The bad guys lost. And no, you can't ever have slaves again.
  
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kaz
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Re: So are All Libertarians Comfortable with The Right to Discriminate?
Reply #19 - Feb 2nd, 2018 at 1:08pm
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Americans making an issue of such simple questions to answer, indicates a deep racism problem in your country.

Other countries seem to have moved on. Forget the civil war. The bad guys lost. And no, you can't ever have slaves again.


It's racism because you don't want to walk across the street when you and your honey, Steve, want to get married and the baker doesn't want to make your wedding cake?

Why does freedom scare you so badly?  Don't you want to give people to money who want your business?

Also, you eat the cake you forced a baker to make you at government gunpoint.
I'm not going to ...
  

Greg Gutfeld - I became a conservative by being around liberals and I became a libertarian by being around conservatives

Matt Stone - I hate conservatives, but I really f'ing hate liberals
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