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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) So are All Libertarians Comfortable with The Right to Discriminate? (Read 1363 times)
The Opposition
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Re: So are All Libertarians Comfortable with The Right to Discriminate?
Reply #130 - Feb 6th, 2018 at 2:55pm
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kaz wrote on Feb 6th, 2018 at 2:49pm:
Again where do you get this ridiculous right to force someone to bake you a cake.  I've asked you this question repeatedly and you run away every time.


I have said a million times now there is no right to force cakes out of people. That WOULD be a positive right.

The right is not to be discriminated against.

If you really just want to exercise your right not to bake that man a cake, which I agree you have, don't bake him a cake, and don't give him the idea that it's because he's black.

kaz wrote on Feb 6th, 2018 at 2:49pm:
Where does the government get the power to control interactions between citizens?


You shooting a bullet into someone is an interaction between citizens. Do you deny that when one citizen violates rights, the government has the power to step in?

kaz wrote on Feb 6th, 2018 at 2:49pm:
The Constitution was to LIMIT government power and you want them empowered to make life fair.  Wow, they're never going to abuse that, are they?


They abuse the power to lock people up if they murder, too.

Look up what they did to Steven Avery. There was a documentary about it: Making a Murderer. Usually when they frame someone it doesn't get made into a documentary.

But you're dodging the issue. You addressed none of my previous post and the issue is not whether or not government will abuse power. They will. That is not in dispute. The dispute is whether or not POCs have the right not to be discriminated against.

You said I was claiming a positive right. I refuted that. I gave you links. You ignored them as usual.
  

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Not taking Jeff seriously until he admits this is animal abuse (which he says should be illegal): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WE-IT7_CaE4
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Don_G
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Re: So are All Libertarians Comfortable with The Right to Discriminate?
Reply #131 - Feb 6th, 2018 at 3:01pm
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kaz wrote on Feb 6th, 2018 at 2:52pm:
That's hilarious.  You really don't grasp the difference between not being able to harm someone and forcing someone to server you, do you?  You actually don't grasp that?


I won't answer you when you're being rude and obnoxious. That which you have learned today is now being put into practice by me. I'm content knowing that you now understand what you have to make happen. Take your time. When you start to get it right then you'll get logical answers.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: So are All Libertarians Comfortable with The Right to Discriminate?
Reply #132 - Feb 6th, 2018 at 3:06pm
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kaz wrote on Feb 6th, 2018 at 2:52pm:
The right to force someone to bake you a cake no matter how you justify it is also a positive right.  Positive rights aren't actually legitimate rights ever


I understand that and I have said a billion times now there is no entitlement to a cake, ever.

If you discriminate against someone, it'll be about what you did to him, not what you didn't do.

You honestly think that if someone lynches a black person, I want them punished because they didn't give him a cake? The cake has absolutely nothing to do with the issue.
  

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Not taking Jeff seriously until he admits this is animal abuse (which he says should be illegal): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WE-IT7_CaE4
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kaz
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Re: So are All Libertarians Comfortable with The Right to Discriminate?
Reply #133 - Feb 6th, 2018 at 3:25pm
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The Opposition wrote on Feb 6th, 2018 at 3:06pm:
I understand that and I have said a billion times now there is no entitlement to a cake, ever


Bull shit, you repeatedly say government can point guns at citizens and force them to bake cakes for other people as long as they call it something else.

Negative rights are the right to be left alone.  There's no possible way to spin forcing someone to bake a cake for you as a negative right.

That you bake cakes for white people doesn't mean a black person can demand you bake them a cake.  That is a positive right, which aren't actual rights.

And AGAIN.  Where in the Constitution does it give government any power over citizens to make life fair?

The Constitution gives no power for government to control actions between citizens.  The greatest power for minorities against discrimination is a free market
  

Greg Gutfeld - I became a conservative by being around liberals and I became a libertarian by being around conservatives

Matt Stone - I hate conservatives, but I really f'ing hate liberals
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Billie
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Re: So are All Libertarians Comfortable with The Right to Discriminate?
Reply #134 - Feb 6th, 2018 at 3:49pm
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The Opposition wrote on Feb 6th, 2018 at 2:55pm:
The right is not to be discriminated against.

By government.

I am free to not invite you to my neighborhood picnic, even if you are the only neighbor I don't invite, and I can refuse to invite you for any reason I might have or imagine.

If the government is handing out party favors, they are not permitted to give all the party favors to white men and none to anyone else.

I on the other hand, can give all of the party favors at my party to Susie, and none to anyone else.
  
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kaz
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Re: So are All Libertarians Comfortable with The Right to Discriminate?
Reply #135 - Feb 6th, 2018 at 4:02pm
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Billie wrote on Feb 6th, 2018 at 3:49pm:
By government.

I am free to not invite you to my neighborhood picnic, even if you are the only neighbor I don't invite, and I can refuse to invite you for any reason I might have or imagine.

If the government is handing out party favors, they are not permitted to give all the party favors to white men and none to anyone else.

I on the other hand, can give all of the party favors at my party to Susie, and none to anyone else.


Bingo!

The 14th amendment is a limit on government power.  Opposition thinks it's a grant of a government power.

Giving the government the power to control interactions between citizens as Opposition is determined to do just opens the door to Don The Troll style socialism.  Liberty is over.

And he's willing to do it so gays and blacks and whoever don't need to walk across the street to buy cakes.  It's pathetic
  

Greg Gutfeld - I became a conservative by being around liberals and I became a libertarian by being around conservatives

Matt Stone - I hate conservatives, but I really f'ing hate liberals
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Billie
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Re: So are All Libertarians Comfortable with The Right to Discriminate?
Reply #136 - Feb 6th, 2018 at 5:17pm
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kaz wrote on Feb 6th, 2018 at 4:02pm:
And he's willing to do it so gays and blacks and whoever don't need to walk across the street to buy cakes.  It's pathetic
Yes, and it's more serious that the government is trying to perpetuate racism and failing.

I know, the government claims to have a rational scientific plan that will cleanse tribal, racist minded thoughts from humanity...

That hasn't and isn't working either.

Where I live, the community seems to be strengthening, acting more and more as a community of humans should.

Edit: We're pretty far removed from much government. Partly because we can't afford much government, and partly because we want less, even though we don't have that much, relatively speaking.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: So are All Libertarians Comfortable with The Right to Discriminate?
Reply #137 - Feb 7th, 2018 at 10:28pm
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kaz wrote on Feb 6th, 2018 at 4:02pm:
The 14th amendment is a limit on government power.  Opposition thinks it's a grant of a government power.


No I don't. Ideally a private court would handle the issue.

I have stated my position a million times and you've misinterpreted it a million times.

1. I believe POCs have a right not to be discriminated against.

I don't care what the Constitution says or does not say, though the law actually agrees with me, and the law in question - The Civil Rights Act - was passed utilising the "regulation of interstate trade" clause so if you're going Constitutional the right only extends to trade, and I'm fine with that too.

2. I do not believe there is ever an entitlement to a good or service from another person. Even in contracts, there is a right to breach. There is a right not to have a certain thing done to you, and that thing is discrimination.

3. There are infinite ways not to bake that man a cake without discriminating against him, even if you already have the cake shop and he's already there. Lie if you have to - you have the right to lie. Say you ran out of frosting or you have to get home for your daughter's birthday.

4. When you take the positive action to make sure that man knows the reason he didn't get a cake was because he was black, that's the discrimination. If you really only want to exercise your right to refuse service, refuse service. Make an excuse. Or say nothing whatsoever. As a violation of a right, and a crime in Statist philosophy, the discrimination should have to be proven. He's going to have a hard time doing that if you didn't intentionally let him know why he didn't get a cake.
  

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Not taking Jeff seriously until he admits this is animal abuse (which he says should be illegal): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WE-IT7_CaE4
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Billie
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Re: So are All Libertarians Comfortable with The Right to Discriminate?
Reply #138 - Feb 8th, 2018 at 6:23am
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The Opposition wrote on Feb 7th, 2018 at 10:28pm:
1. I believe POCs have a right not to be discriminated against.

No more or less than POOCs (people of other colors). Everyone must be treated equally under the law.

Our government does not do that, they treat people differently under the law based on skin color. Treating people differently because of their skin color is what Jim Crow laws did. It is racial discrimination and the government is forbidden to do it.

Individuals have rights and the government does not. One of those individual rights is freedom of association.
  
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Re: So are All Libertarians Comfortable with The Right to Discriminate?
Reply #139 - Feb 8th, 2018 at 12:29pm
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Billie wrote on Feb 8th, 2018 at 6:23am:
No more or less than POOCs (people of other colors). Everyone must be treated equally under the law.

Our government does not do that, they treat people differently under the law based on skin color. Treating people differently because of their skin color is what Jim Crow laws did. It is racial discrimination and the government is forbidden to do it.

Individuals have rights and the government does not. One of those individual rights is freedom of association.


You're refusing to think of black people as victims who need to be compensated. White people in your country destroyed the lives of black people back in the days of slavery, and effects carry over to future generations.

The US today is reaping the benefits even though your civil war settled the issue for people of decency. The trouble is, lots of people without that decency never did accept the conclusion.

Now it's going to take more than just treating the black people as equals. That's not enough for them and justifiably so. And so you have the promotion of inequality.

It's owed to black people. Those decent people I mentioned can understand affirmative action as a gesture of good faith. Why don't you?

I suspect that you and people like you think that force is going to work better than a hand out to lift them up to the level of you white Americans.
  
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