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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) So are All Libertarians Comfortable with The Right to Discriminate? (Read 1812 times)
SkyChief
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Re: So are All Libertarians Comfortable with The Right to Discriminate?
Reply #140 - Feb 8th, 2018 at 1:19pm
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Jeff wrote on Feb 8th, 2018 at 6:23am:
Individuals have rights and the government does not. One of those individual rights is freedom of association.

Exactly. 

By the same token, an individual has a freedom of dis-association, too.

The Jewish baker should not be forced to bake a cake for the Annual Neo-Nazi Convention.
  
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Re: So are All Libertarians Comfortable with The Right to Discriminate?
Reply #141 - Feb 8th, 2018 at 1:33pm
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SkyChief wrote on Feb 8th, 2018 at 1:19pm:
Exactly. 

By the same token, an individual has a freedom of dis-association, too.

The Jewish baker should not be forced to bake a cake for the Annual Neo-Nazi Convention.


You all have the right to suffer the effects of your racism as long as you like. Internal US strife is good for the world.

It becomes dangerous when it's effects carry over to Russia hate for US domestic political reasons. The situation between Russia and the US has got to crisis proportions in Syria. Russia could quite likely show Syria how to shoot down one or two US war planes that are involved in attacking Syrian gov forces.

Aside from the obvious danger such an event would pose, maybe it needs to happen. Russia has bit the bullet a few times now and the US definitely has the intent to keep pushing the envelope.

Then we all get to see how the psychopath president handles it!
  
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SkyChief
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Re: So are All Libertarians Comfortable with The Right to Discriminate?
Reply #142 - Feb 8th, 2018 at 1:49pm
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You all have the right to suffer the effects of your racism as long as you like. Internal US strife is good for the world.

Russia could quite likely show Syria how to shoot down one or two US war planes that are involved in attacking Syrian gov forces.

You're suggesting that my racism may result in the death of US pilots?

That's kind of a stretch - even for you!   Grin 

Keep it up though.  I find your posts most amusing.  Wink
  
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The Opposition
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Re: So are All Libertarians Comfortable with The Right to Discriminate?
Reply #143 - Feb 8th, 2018 at 2:47pm
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SkyChief wrote on Feb 8th, 2018 at 1:19pm:
Exactly. 

By the same token, an individual has a freedom of dis-association, too.

The Jewish baker should not be forced to bake a cake for the Annual Neo-Nazi Convention.


No he shouldn't. I'm also not positing that white people, especially racists, have the right not to be discriminated against. Only POCs and LGBTQ+ have this right.

I also explained to you all a billion times that there is no entitlement to a cake, ever.

Say you're out of frosting. Or say nothing at all. You have to take a positive action to discriminate - to let people know why they're not getting that cake - for it to be a violation of rights.

If you really just want to exercise the right you absolutely have to refuse service to anyone, you'll be fine with this. If you want to discriminate, you'll let them know why they didn't get the cake.

Jeff wrote on Feb 8th, 2018 at 6:23am:
No more or less than POOCs (people of other colors). Everyone must be treated equally under the law.


Bullshit. People have different rights. Proof below. One of these quotes is yours. If you don't address them, I won't say another word to you in this thread.

merkelstan wrote on Feb 28th, 2017 at 11:15pm:
Rothbard's criteria makes more sense, because not only does the entity have to demonstrate conscious thought, it needs to understand the concept of rights and demand them for itself.

Amusingly, The Opposition would fail that test.  I still can't get-over what a mental trainwreck his (her?) "concept" of rights was.


Crystallas wrote on Dec 27th, 2017 at 11:05pm:
Egalitarianism and libertarianism are not fully compatible, as established in Rothbard's ERAN writings. So if you are trying to suggest that the rules change pending the situation, then no sh**, duh. That is the point. Because one nuisance is not equal in all circumstances, which is more why the NAP does an incredible job of defining what is just and unjust.


Jeff wrote on Dec 23rd, 2017 at 7:52am:
Slaughtering animals for food according to religious prescripts is not animal abuse.
Slaughtering animals in the same way for fun would be.

Too subtle for you?
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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SkyChief
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Re: So are All Libertarians Comfortable with The Right to Discriminate?
Reply #144 - Feb 8th, 2018 at 5:15pm
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The Opposition wrote on Feb 8th, 2018 at 2:47pm:
Only POCs and LGBTQ+ have this right.
Say you're out of frosting. Or say nothing at all. You have to take a positive action to discriminate - to let people know why they're not getting that cake - for it to be a violation of rights.

If you really just want to exercise the right you absolutely have to refuse service to anyone, you'll be fine with this. If you want to discriminate, you'll let them know why they didn't get the cake.

I honestly don't see the logic in this. 

If I refuse service to a bald man because he's bald and don't tell him, then it's not discrimination. 

But if I tell him that I'm not serving him because he's bald, then suddenly it becomes discrimination?

Is this what you're saying?
  
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The Opposition
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Re: So are All Libertarians Comfortable with The Right to Discriminate?
Reply #145 - Feb 8th, 2018 at 11:14pm
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SkyChief wrote on Feb 8th, 2018 at 5:15pm:
I honestly don't see the logic in this. 

If I refuse service to a bald man because he's bald and don't tell him, then it's not discrimination. 

But if I tell him that I'm not serving him because he's bald, then suddenly it becomes discrimination?

Is this what you're saying?


Pretty much, but not exactly.

The logic is this:

1. If we say discrimination is a violation of rights, that should, in Statist philosophy, make it a crime.

2. If you think someone else is a criminal, you have to prove it. The burden of proof is on the one making the accusation.

∴ As long as you don't say something like, "Get out, baldy." you have presented no one with any evidence that you have discriminated.

And people who actually want to discriminate aren't going to be satisfied with doing it if they can't hurt the person they're doing it to. Unless they do take some positive action and let Baldylocks know why he isn't getting his cake, they don't benefit from an opportunity to inflict harm on someone for their race (by the way, baldness should not confer this protection).
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Snarky Sack
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Re: So are All Libertarians Comfortable with The Right to Discriminate?
Reply #146 - Feb 9th, 2018 at 11:01am
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The Opposition wrote on Feb 8th, 2018 at 11:14pm:
Pretty much, but not exactly.

The logic is this:

1. If we say discrimination is a violation of rights, that should, in Statist philosophy, make it a crime.

2. If you think someone else is a criminal, you have to prove it. The burden of proof is on the one making the accusation.

∴ As long as you don't say something like, "Get out, baldy." you have presented no one with any evidence that you have discriminated.


If only a lack of concrete evidence were enough to avoid the consequences of an accusation of discrimination.  Unfortunately, the statists have found away around the presumption of innocence.  "Because ____________ is so very hard to prove and there often is no evidence when it happens, it is important that we believe the victims"  In this case the _______ is discrimination, but the same logic is applied to sex crimes.  Therefore a person accused finds himself asked repeatedly to prove their innocence. 

Another way around the fact that few people openly state the reasons for discrimination is by use of demographic statistics to "prove" bias. 

In the cases of the bakers declining to service same-sex weddings, they have openly "admitted" to discriminating so that is a different circumstance.

Quote:
And people who actually want to discriminate aren't going to be satisfied with doing it if they can't hurt the person they're doing it to. Unless they do take some positive action and let Baldylocks know why he isn't getting his cake, they don't benefit from an opportunity to inflict harm on someone for their race (by the way, baldness should not confer this protection).


In the case of Christians not making cakes for same-sex weddings, I don't think their motivation is to harm.  They would argue that encouraging them to marry each other would be helping them to harm themselves because they would be further separated from God.  I disagree with them, but I don't question their sincerity.  In one of those cases (a florist or a baker, I can't remember which) they had served the customer many  previous times and considered him a friend.  They only balked at participating in something their religion strongly condemns.

Again, if the state can force me to bake a cake for an event that my religion proscribes, what freedom do I have?  None.  I only have permission for what the government currently allows me to do because no pressure group has yet asked them to stop me.





  

"Taxes are morally justified theft" - Jeff
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Don_G
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Re: So are All Libertarians Comfortable with The Right to Discriminate?
Reply #147 - Feb 9th, 2018 at 1:01pm
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SkyChief wrote on Feb 8th, 2018 at 5:15pm:
I honestly don't see the logic in this. 

If I refuse service to a bald man because he's bald and don't tell him, then it's not discrimination. 

But if I tell him that I'm not serving him because he's bald, then suddenly it becomes discrimination?

Is this what you're saying?


He's made a very valid point. The part you don't understand is that racists or bigots want to make a point and be allowed to make it. So not being racists or bigots and just discriminating against some people brings no satisfaction to them.

The difference is being pointed out by Oppo, regardless of whether he understands or not, between US attitudes and attitudes in other countries.

Because of US attitudes, the people need to make all situations into confrontations that cause trouble. It doesn't work that way in Canada or other countries.

You won't be able to understand that because you will reject it immediately. Maybe Oppo will?
  
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Don_G
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Re: So are All Libertarians Comfortable with The Right to Discriminate?
Reply #148 - Feb 9th, 2018 at 1:06pm
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If any of you are bright enough to notice, then take note of burnsred's comments. What he does is turn the issue into confrontation to ensure no agreement will be possible. He uses words like 'force' whenever he gets the opportunity.

It's not always like that in other countries but you pseudo-libertarians have a hard-on for the word 'cooperation' so logic sails right over your heads.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: So are All Libertarians Comfortable with The Right to Discriminate?
Reply #149 - Feb 9th, 2018 at 3:25pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Feb 9th, 2018 at 11:01am:
If only a lack of concrete evidence were enough to avoid the consequences of an accusation of discrimination.


Well it should be. If people know a certain baker is biased against blacks, they ought to wear bugs and record evidence of it, then present it to a jury. Ideally, a private court will decide, but they shouldn't allow the defendant to play the Jeff card and play dumb if it was something obvious.

Snarky Sack wrote on Feb 9th, 2018 at 11:01am:
In the case of Christians not making cakes for same-sex weddings, I don't think their motivation is to harm.


You have a lot of faith in humanity. But the point remains; they should be able to refuse service without letting the customer know why. Why not do this?

It's at very least a dominance game. They hope to gain equality by waving their I'm-Special-Too flag: Religion. It's disgusting.

I don't believe they think they're going to Hell for baking a cake, especially if the State forced them to do it. They want to get away with something, and gain equal status to that of a minority. All of life is a dominance game, and constant jostling for position, and all humans are filthy monkeys that can't do anything else.

You'll notice that I don't play. I'm not willing to sacrifice what I am - better than human - just for equality, no matter how much I desire it.

If someone says I don't have rights, I don't bicker. I don't screech and ook and fling my shit just to climb a little higher. Three people on this forum have said I don't have rights and I simply accept it.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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