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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) So are All Libertarians Comfortable with The Right to Discriminate? (Read 1752 times)
SnarkySack
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Re: So are All Libertarians Comfortable with The Right to Discriminate?
Reply #150 - Feb 9th, 2018 at 4:21pm
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SnarkySack wrote Today at 11:01am:
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In the case of Christians not making cakes for same-sex weddings, I don't think their motivation is to harm.


The Opposition wrote on Feb 9th, 2018 at 3:25pm:
You have a lot of faith in humanity. But the point remains; they should be able to refuse service without letting the customer know why. Why not do this? 


Fair question.  My answer lies in a lesson I learned in raising kids about making excuses for saying no instead of just leaving it at "no" or giving the real reason.  Walk by the donut counter in a food court and the kids ask for some.  I say, "no, because they're closed" since no one is there.  Five seconds later someone opens the kiosk and my kids think now they will get donuts for lunch since the only reason I gave was that it was closed.  Tell the gay couple you're booked up for June and they'll say they can do it in July since they love your fabulous cakes.


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It's at very least a dominance game. They hope to gain equality by waving their I'm-Special-Too flag: Religion. It's disgusting.


The dominance game is being played by those pretending that a gay-friendly florist is difficult to find so we have to start forcing Baptists to make matching bridal bouquets. 


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I don't believe they think they're going to Hell for baking a cake, especially if the State forced them to do it. They want to get away with something, and gain equal status to that of a minority. 
  I'm sure in some cases that's true.  There are all kinds of mean motivations.  Back to my availability of gay-friendly florists example, those who bypass businesses who are willing to serve them in favor forcing the unwilling have the worst possible of motivations.

  

I used to be burnsred . . .
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Don_G
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Re: So are All Libertarians Comfortable with The Right to Discriminate?
Reply #151 - Feb 9th, 2018 at 7:03pm
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There's no satisfaction for Americans in hating if nobody notices. The bigot or the racist has to make sure somebody notices that he/she is hurting other people in order to get pleasure out of it.

So the racist needs to be able to tell blacks that he doesn't bake cakes for black people. Or the bigot needs to tell a gay people that he won't bake a cake for them. Then he can see the hurt he has caused.

That damn civil war is still not over. It could spell the failure of the experiment that is the US!
  
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The Opposition
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Re: So are All Libertarians Comfortable with The Right to Discriminate?
Reply #152 - Feb 10th, 2018 at 2:48am
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SnarkySack wrote on Feb 9th, 2018 at 4:21pm:
Fair question.  My answer lies in a lesson I learned in raising kids about making excuses for saying no instead of just leaving it at "no" or giving the real reason.  Walk by the donut counter in a food court and the kids ask for some.  I say, "no, because they're closed" since no one is there.  Five seconds later someone opens the kiosk and my kids think now they will get donuts for lunch since the only reason I gave was that it was closed.  Tell the gay couple you're booked up for June and they'll say they can do it in July since they love your fabulous cakes.


Wow this spellchecker sucks. Donut? Really? I guess it wants doughnut but I spell British and even I'm not that bad. I know donut is a word.

Disproven is also a word.

Anyway, back on topic, you'll be saying no a lot. You may want to just not give a reason. You've given no proof, and if we're saying discrimination is a violation of rights - a crime - they should need proof.

At best, it's an ideological stand. They want to be able to discriminate. They want their equality. And they're willing to waste the government's time and the taxpayer's money getting it for themselves.

SnarkySack wrote on Feb 9th, 2018 at 4:21pm:
The dominance game is being played by those pretending that a gay-friendly florist is difficult to find so we have to start forcing Baptists to make matching bridal bouquets.


They're also playing it. To me (however, this is not objectively true) it's just as disgusting.

They happen to deserve the top spot because they buck futts or have brown skin, because those have been oppressed in the past. It's an injustice, and for that, a justice is owed, but you're right that they delight in it.

Personally I find the dominance game revolting on both sides. I find the fact that there must always be one dominant and one submissive revolting. I believe more of humanity's resources are squandered on this ridiculous bullshit than have been spent on anything else, ever.
  

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genepool
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Re: So are All Libertarians Comfortable with The Right to Discriminate?
Reply #153 - Feb 10th, 2018 at 8:46am
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I would favor natural segregation.

You want some right to discriminate based on skin color, move to a state you like.

To be honest, I think people should have a right to do so in their own property. That being said, in some cases it can be so repulsive to me, I will not even vote with my foot by going to such states.

It's like should people have right to torture animals they OWN.

If you really take radical libertarian view, then yes. At that point, I am no longer libertarian.

Actually I consider my self a minarchist rather than libertarian now. I want less government, slowly. And that's it. I understand that non libertarian have their "reasonable" cases.

I think a party that keeps wanting less and less government, will actually make the world more libertarian more effectively than radicals.
  
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Don_G
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Re: So are All Libertarians Comfortable with The Right to Discriminate?
Reply #154 - Feb 10th, 2018 at 6:20pm
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genepool wrote on Feb 10th, 2018 at 8:46am:
I would favor natural segregation.

You want some right to discriminate based on skin color, move to a state you like.

To be honest, I think people should have a right to do so in their own property. That being said, in some cases it can be so repulsive to me, I will not even vote with my foot by going to such states.

It's like should people have right to torture animals they OWN.

If you really take radical libertarian view, then yes. At that point, I am no longer libertarian.

Actually I consider my self a minarchist rather than libertarian now. I want less government, slowly. And that's it. I understand that non libertarian have their "reasonable" cases.

I think a party that keeps wanting less and less government, will actually make the world more libertarian more effectively than radicals.


Wanting less government is a flawed concept but mostly because it remains meaningless. Libertarians live in some dream world. They don't want to lead the way to a better system of government, they only want to complain about nothing specific..
  
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SnarkySack
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Re: So are All Libertarians Comfortable with The Right to Discriminate?
Reply #155 - Feb 10th, 2018 at 11:05pm
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Wanting less government is a flawed concept but mostly because it remains meaningless. Libertarians live in some dream world. They don't want to lead the way to a better system of government, they only want to complain about nothing specific..


With this post are you finally admitting you are not a libertarian?

  

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SnarkySack
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Re: So are All Libertarians Comfortable with The Right to Discriminate?
Reply #156 - Feb 10th, 2018 at 11:26pm
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The Opposition wrote on Feb 10th, 2018 at 2:48am:
Wow this spellchecker sucks. Donut? Really? I guess it wants doughnut but I spell British and even I'm not that bad. I know donut is a word.

Disproven is also a word.

Anyway, back on topic, you'll be saying no a lot. You may want to just not give a reason. You've given no proof, and if we're saying discrimination is a violation of rights - a crime - they should need proof.

At best, it's an ideological stand. They want to be able to discriminate. They want their equality. And they're willing to waste the government's time and the taxpayer's money getting it for themselves.


They're also playing it. To me (however, this is not objectively true) it's just as disgusting.

They happen to deserve the top spot because they buck futts or have brown skin, because those have been oppressed in the past. It's an injustice, and for that, a justice is owed, but you're right that they delight in it.

Personally I find the dominance game revolting on both sides. I find the fact that there must always be one dominant and one submissive revolting. I believe more of humanity's resources are squandered on this ridiculous bullshit than have been spent on anything else, ever.


It may be that more of the world's resources have been wasted on humans pursuing the "right thing" than on anything else.

Watch The Grey Zone to see what happens when expediency is allowed to take precedence over the right ting.




  

I used to be burnsred . . .
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Don_G
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Re: So are All Libertarians Comfortable with The Right to Discriminate?
Reply #157 - Feb 11th, 2018 at 1:04pm
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SnarkySack wrote on Feb 10th, 2018 at 11:05pm:
With this post are you finally admitting you are not a libertarian?



It's the result of the frustration I'm feeling over the pseudo-libertarian nonsense being supported on this board. If I hear something that is truly libertarian, and therefor rational and possible, I'll be quick to commend it.

There have been hints from several of you in that some of you have condemned a lot of the stupidity. In fact, it's hard to think of any libertarian proposal or idea that hasn't been massacred by others.

While Oppo/therm babble, you, jeff, and the dead pig have done a thorough job.

Did you have something to propose that we can agree upon?
  
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