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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Anarchy Vs Theft by Government (Read 377 times)
SnarkySack
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Anarchy Vs Theft by Government
Feb 3rd, 2018 at 12:06am
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A false choice. 

We don't have to decide whether we want roving gangs to rob us or whether we want government to rob us while pretending to protect us from those roving gangs.  For two reasons:

1)  When we have libertarianism, then under libertarianism, making money honestly would be so easy under the free market and robbing citizens will be so dangerous under the right to bear arms that only a crazy fool wold choose the latter as a way to make a living.

2)  Government's promise of protection is as false as its promise of freedom and prosperity.  Government is antithetical to both of those.  At best, government will imprison those who harm us.  What good does that do, when ten people will arise to harm us further?

We can say "hell no!" to being robbed by anyone if only we can pause for a moment in our quest to try to make enough money that we can pursue happiness even though the government takes more than half of what we earn.  Just a little attention to protecting our rights and we'll have our rights and our freedom as well.

We can do it, libertarians!  If only we will . . .







  

I used to be burnsred . . .
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Don_G
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Re: Anarcht Vs Theft by Government
Reply #1 - Feb 3rd, 2018 at 12:26am
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SnarkySack wrote on Feb 3rd, 2018 at 12:06am:
A false choice. 

We don't have to decide whether we want roving gangs to rob us or whether we want government to rob us while pretending to protect us from those roving gangs.  For two reasons:

1)  When we have libertarianism, then under libertarianism, making money honestly would be so easy under the free market and robbing citizens will be so dangerous under the right to bear arms that only a crazy fool wold choose the latter as a way to make a living.

2)  Government's promise of protection is as false as its promise of freedom and prosperity.  Government is antithetical to both of those.  At best, government will imprison those who harm us.  What good does that do, when ten people will arise to harm us further?

We can say "hell no!" to being robbed by anyone if only we can pause for a moment in our quest to try to make enough money that we can pursue happiness even though the government takes more than half of what we earn.  Just a little attention to protecting our rights and we'll have our rights and our freedom as well.

We can do it, libertarians!  If only we will . . .









No burnsred, you libertarians can't do it because there's nothing honest in your pseudo-libertarian ideas.

For instance, you say it's wrong for government to take half of what you earn but you never explain why.

It's just as valid for government to take 50% as it is to take 10% or 90%. The only time it isn't valid is when poor people earn as much or less than what they require to survive.

Real libertarianism is always going to be socially responsible capitalism.

Any answers you ever get for your unhappiness will come from people like those who invented Norway's prison system, for one obvious example.

You yourself ran smack up against that truth but you haven't had the courage to learn from it. Instead you make mockery of it because that's all you have left.

Sober up, take 6 aspirins, and call me in the morning.
  
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thermf5
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Re: Anarchy Vs Theft by Government
Reply #2 - Feb 3rd, 2018 at 2:30am
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SnarkySack wrote on Feb 3rd, 2018 at 12:06am:
A false choice. 

We don't have to decide whether we want roving gangs to rob us or whether we want government to rob us while pretending to protect us from those roving gangs.  For two reasons:

1)  When we have libertarianism, then under libertarianism, making money honestly would be so easy under the free market and robbing citizens will be so dangerous under the right to bear arms that only a crazy fool wold choose the latter as a way to make a living.

2)  Government's promise of protection is as false as its promise of freedom and prosperity.  Government is antithetical to both of those.  At best, government will imprison those who harm us.  What good does that do, when ten people will arise to harm us further?

We can say "hell no!" to being robbed by anyone if only we can pause for a moment in our quest to try to make enough money that we can pursue happiness even though the government takes more than half of what we earn.  Just a little attention to protecting our rights and we'll have our rights and our freedom as well.

We can do it, libertarians!  If only we will . . .








Cry .

Boney and clide where rovei g gangs under ur def and to assume there would not be bandits in a libertain system is dumb but to assume everyone would be a bandit or tageted by one is stupid u don't want the government to tax u find then expect an everment that mob justice is rapent to put to much father in humanty
  
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kaz
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Re: Anarcht Vs Theft by Government
Reply #3 - Feb 3rd, 2018 at 8:39am
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Don_G wrote on Feb 3rd, 2018 at 12:26am:
No burnsred, you libertarians can't do it because there's nothing honest in your pseudo-libertarian ideas.

For instance, you say it's wrong for government to take half of what you earn but you never explain why


Smiley Smiley Smiley Smiley Smiley

OMG, he has to explain why you should get more of the money you earned than the government does.  That's just out of nowhere to you.

The mind of a socialist, it's an oxymoron

Smiley Smiley Smiley Smiley Smiley

Don_G wrote on Feb 3rd, 2018 at 12:26am:
Real libertarianism is always going to be socially responsible capitalism


True.  Socially responsible government leaves social responsibility in the hands of the people where it belongs and stays out of it

Smiley Smiley Smiley Smiley Smiley
  

Greg Gutfeld - I became a conservative by being around liberals and I became a libertarian by being around conservatives

Matt Stone - I hate conservatives, but I really f'ing hate liberals
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kaz
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Re: Anarchy Vs Theft by Government
Reply #4 - Feb 3rd, 2018 at 8:42am
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SnarkySack wrote on Feb 3rd, 2018 at 12:06am:
A false choice


A false position.  You totally support mandatory taxes.  If I want to own land, run a business, drive on roads or do anything other than live in a shopping cart I push around the streets, then your taxes are mandatory.  And if I live in a shopping cart, I don't pay taxes now.

What you have is a distinction without a difference.

At least you pay my tax (the fair tax) once.  Your mandatory taxes are paid all day long like they are now
  

Greg Gutfeld - I became a conservative by being around liberals and I became a libertarian by being around conservatives

Matt Stone - I hate conservatives, but I really f'ing hate liberals
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SnarkySack
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Re: Anarchy Vs Theft by Government
Reply #5 - Feb 3rd, 2018 at 9:29am
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kaz wrote on Feb 3rd, 2018 at 8:42am:
A false position.  You totally support mandatory taxes.  If I want to own land,
 

The difference between owning land and owning a can of beans or a Cadillac is that no land ownership is possible without government.  If I want to say that an acre of land is mine because "I was here first*" I will have a hard time keeping it without acknowledgment from those who may see it second, third, to infinity.  Forty acres for farming or forty thousand acres for ranching would be impossible to secure without collective agreement and an organization that can legitimately use force to protect my right to that land.

Can you provide any examples of land ownership without that ownership being granted by government?



Quote:
run a business, drive on roads or do anything other than live in a shopping cart I push around the streets, then your taxes are mandatory.  And if I live in a shopping cart, I don't pay taxes now.
You could run a business and drive on roads under my proposal.  You just couldn't drive on new construction for which tolls are required if you adopt an absolutist position that you refuse to give the government a dime.  Not being snarky about that; you should be able to adopt and hold to that position.  If you can't, you're not free.

As far as where to live without paying government even indirectly as a renter, that's a good point.  I'll start a topic on just that part as soon as I collect my thoughts on it.

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What you have is a distinction without a difference.

At least you pay my tax (the fair tax) once.  Your mandatory taxes are paid all day long like they are now


I thought the Fair Tax is basically a federal sales tax?  You would pay that every time you buy something, wouldn't you?  How are my "mandatory taxes" paid all day long and yours are not?


*The claim of "I was here first" must have struck the American Indians as a bizarre statement. 
  

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kaz
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Re: Anarchy Vs Theft by Government
Reply #6 - Feb 3rd, 2018 at 9:59am
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SnarkySack wrote on Feb 3rd, 2018 at 9:29am:
 

The difference between owning land and owning a can of beans or a Cadillac is that no land ownership is possible without government.  If I want to say that an acre of land is mine because "I was here first*" I will have a hard time keeping it without acknowledgment from those who may see it second, third, to infinity.  Forty acres for farming or forty thousand acres for ranching would be impossible to secure without collective agreement and an organization that can legitimately use force to protect my right to that land.

Can you provide any examples of land ownership without that ownership being granted by government?



You could run a business and drive on roads under my proposal.  You just couldn't drive on new construction for which tolls are required if you adopt an absolutist position that you refuse to give the government a dime.  Not being snarky about that; you should be able to adopt and hold to that position.  If you can't, you're not free.

As far as where to live without paying government even indirectly as a renter, that's a good point.  I'll start a topic on just that part as soon as I collect my thoughts on it.


I thought the Fair Tax is basically a federal sales tax?  You would pay that every time you buy something, wouldn't you?  How are my "mandatory taxes" paid all day long and yours are not?


*The claim of "I was here first" must have struck the American Indians as a bizarre statement. 


Your land question was bizarre since it didn't contradict my argument.  So instead of continuing to spin and word parse, describe how a productive member of society can operate without paying taxes in your system since you claim yours are voluntary.  I want to live a good life, and I don't want to pay taxes.

Explain how I go about that
  

Greg Gutfeld - I became a conservative by being around liberals and I became a libertarian by being around conservatives

Matt Stone - I hate conservatives, but I really f'ing hate liberals
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SnarkySack
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Re: Anarchy Vs Theft by Government
Reply #7 - Feb 3rd, 2018 at 11:06am
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kaz wrote on Feb 3rd, 2018 at 9:59am:
Your land question was bizarre since it didn't contradict my argument. 


Ok, then could you answer it anyway since it won't contradict your argument?  It was:

Can you provide any examples of land ownership without that ownership being granted by government?

Quote:
So instead of continuing to spin and word parse, describe how a productive member of society can operate without paying taxes in your system since you claim yours are voluntary.  I want to live a good life, and I don't want to pay taxes.

Explain how I go about that


It depends on what you mean by "a good life."  If "a good life"to you means that you own land and drive on the latest roads and bridges, have courts and police available when you need them, you will choose to pay the organizations who provide that for you.  But that's not unusual.  If a good life includes regular teeth cleaning you will pay the dentist office for that service.  It would be kind of silly for you to say, "you're forcing me to pay you, because if I don't get my teeth cleaned, I'll get gingivitis!"

Because securing land rights is only accomplished by government, that is one of the very few powers we would give it under a libertarian system.  Without government we cannot "own" the geometric concept of area on land anymore than we can own it on the ocean or a lake.  But if government decided to, it could allow us to own square areas of bodies of water, instead of reserving them for public use.  Only government could enforce it so if we want our land ownership protected we pay government.  If not, we don't.  No one would go to jail for not paying a land tax under my system.  I assume your Fair Tax includes some penalties for not collecting it? 

  

I used to be burnsred . . .
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kaz
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Re: Anarchy Vs Theft by Government
Reply #8 - Feb 3rd, 2018 at 11:14am
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SnarkySack wrote on Feb 3rd, 2018 at 11:06am:
Ok, then could you answer it anyway since it won't contradict your argument?  It was:

Can you provide any examples of land ownership without that ownership being granted by government?



You're just running away.  Just as you continually do.  I never said land rights can be recognized by anyone but government.   Actually that's continually on my list of the things I support government doing.  I keep saying 90% of government should be:

Military, police, civil and criminal courts, management of limited resources, roads and RECOGNITION OF PROPERTY RIGHTS.  Nowhere did I ever argue that government should not do that.  It's something I continually say it should

SnarkySack wrote on Feb 3rd, 2018 at 11:06am:
It depends on what you mean by "a good life."  If "a good life"to you means that you own land and drive on the latest roads and bridges, have courts and police available when you need them, you will choose to pay the organizations who provide that for you


Bingo.  If I want to live in a shopping cart and walk the streets, your taxes are not mandatory.  Just like if you live that way, you wouldn't pay taxes now.

What do you mean by "latest roads and bridges?"  Isn't government going to pave and expand them?  Are those not the latest?  Meaning virtually all roads?
  What are these roads that are not the "latest" that I don't need to pay for?

SnarkySack wrote on Feb 3rd, 2018 at 11:06am:
If a good life includes regular teeth cleaning you will pay the dentist office for that service.  It would be kind of silly for you to say, "you're forcing me to pay you, because if I don't get my teeth cleaned, I'll get gingivitis!"


Cut the stupid shit
  

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Matt Stone - I hate conservatives, but I really f'ing hate liberals
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Jeff
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Re: Anarchy Vs Theft by Government
Reply #9 - Feb 3rd, 2018 at 5:30pm
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SnarkySack wrote on Feb 3rd, 2018 at 12:06am:
A false choice. 

We don't have to decide whether we want roving gangs to rob us or whether we want government to rob us while pretending to protect us from those roving gangs.  For two reasons:

1)  When we have libertarianism, then under libertarianism, making money honestly would be so easy under the free market and robbing citizens will be so dangerous under the right to bear arms that only a crazy fool wold choose the latter as a way to make a living.

2)  Government's promise of protection is as false as its promise of freedom and prosperity.  Government is antithetical to both of those.  At best, government will imprison those who harm us.  What good does that do, when ten people will arise to harm us further?

We can say "hell no!" to being robbed by anyone if only we can pause for a moment in our quest to try to make enough money that we can pursue happiness even though the government takes more than half of what we earn.  Just a little attention to protecting our rights and we'll have our rights and our freedom as well.

We can do it, libertarians!  If only we will . . .







Take some time off. Try to integrate yourself and get in touch with something larger than you.

Wait a few weeks at least and think seriously about what you are saying before you think about exposing your ideas to ridicule again.

Or not.

You're a free person right? Your Right of General Liberty includes the right to verbally show your ass any time you feel like it. The government is granted no power to stop you...

Unless maybe you are showing your ass for profit... That would be commerce and open to regulation.

Edit: Control.

If you profit from showing your ass, the government claims control of your ass.


  
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