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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Anarchy Vs Theft by Government (Read 488 times)
Don_G
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Re: Anarchy Vs Theft by Government
Reply #10 - Feb 4th, 2018 at 1:38pm
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kaz wrote on Feb 3rd, 2018 at 8:42am:
A false position.  You totally support mandatory taxes.  If I want to own land, run a business, drive on roads or do anything other than live in a shopping cart I push around the streets, then your taxes are mandatory.  And if I live in a shopping cart, I don't pay taxes now.

What you have is a distinction without a difference.

At least you pay my tax (the fair tax) once.  Your mandatory taxes are paid all day long like they are now


You've learned something pig. Instead of my example where you go out and live in the wild where you will be immune from any government influence, you choose living in a shopping cart.

All of you need to learn how to accept taxation and stop coming up with batshit crazy ideas on how to eliminate taxes.

Any time somebody makes a proposal that could be the beginning of a rational approach, it's quickly taken off track and into the batshit libertarian crazy extreme.

You're one of the worst for doing that. It's mostly a fear of libertarian nonsense being examined closely and found to be totally unfeasible.

You all do that every day, completely on your own accord!
  
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kaz
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Re: Anarchy Vs Theft by Government
Reply #11 - Feb 4th, 2018 at 1:45pm
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SnarkySack wrote on Feb 3rd, 2018 at 11:06am:
Can you provide any examples of land ownership without that ownership being granted by government?


kaz:  Recognition of land rights is a legitimate government function

Burnsie:  Oh really?  Tell me another way you would do it

kaz:  That's the only way.  There can be only one recognition system for the same land

Burnsie: That isn't what I asked how else would you do it?

kaz:  How else would I do it other than how I said I'd do it?

Burnsie:  Yes, exactly, how else would you do it?

I don't know what I can tell ya, guy.  You're just flailing 
  

Greg Gutfeld - I became a conservative by being around liberals and I became a libertarian by being around conservatives

Matt Stone - I hate conservatives, but I really f'ing hate liberals
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Don_G
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Re: Anarchy Vs Theft by Government
Reply #12 - Feb 4th, 2018 at 2:40pm
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kaz wrote on Feb 4th, 2018 at 1:45pm:
kaz:  Recognition of land rights is a legitimate government function

Burnsie:  Oh really?  Tell me another way you would do it

kaz:  That's the only way.  There can be only one recognition system for the same land

Burnsie: That isn't what I asked how else would you do it?

kaz:  How else would I do it other than how I said I'd do it?

Burnsie:  Yes, exactly, how else would you do it?

I don't know what I can tell ya, guy.  You're just flailing 


Trying to talk sense to you is just a useless and frustrating waste of one's time.

If you could see that burnsred just resigns himself to mockery of your ugly disposition, you would do us all a favour. How about another year off?

You have nothing to contribute to this forum, or for that matter, any gathering of human beings.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Anarchy Vs Theft by Government
Reply #13 - Feb 4th, 2018 at 6:04pm
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Quote:
Trying to talk sense to you is just a useless and frustrating waste of one's time.

If you could see that burnsred just resigns himself to mockery of your ugly disposition, you would do us all a favour. How about another year off?

You have nothing to contribute to this forum, or for that matter, any gathering of human beings.
I lost track of the anarchy v taxation discussion... Did it die or did anarchy prevail??
  
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SnarkySack
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Re: Anarchy Vs Theft by Government
Reply #14 - Feb 4th, 2018 at 6:58pm
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kaz wrote on Feb 4th, 2018 at 1:45pm:
kaz:  Recognition of land rights is a legitimate government function

Burnsie:  Oh really?  Tell me another way you would do it

kaz:  That's the only way.  There can be only one recognition system for the same land

Burnsie: That isn't what I asked how else would you do it?

kaz:  How else would I do it other than how I said I'd do it?

Burnsie:  Yes, exactly, how else would you do it?

I don't know what I can tell ya, guy.  You're just flailing 


Sorry, I either confused your position with Jeff's or misinterpreted yours.  Jeff tells me that people can own land without government.  I'm glad to hear that you don't subscribe to that.

So my point is that since government is the only organization that can't grant the power to own land,  it isn't theft for government to require a fee for that service. 

The same is true for police, courts, national defense, etc.  Those are services that must be provided by government.  I'm fine with fees for those services so long as paying the fees and availing oneself of those services is voluntary.   

I think the point both you and the Jeff miss is that there is no natural right to own land.  No more than natural right to own square feet of oceans or lakes.  In fact, one could argue that land ownership interferes with the natural right to roam the earth unimpeded that all humans are born with.  Try this thought experiment:

You buy land in the wilderness and build a house on your acre.  Don buys all the land that surrounds your house.  Can he charge you a toll to leave your own land?  Could he make the toll so high that you cannot pay it?  Could he say you can't set foot on his land no matter how much you pay?  Would your only option be helo extraction?

The reason that scenario won't work is that we have government control of land.  Governments grant land titles, but also easements for a situation as above.  They also build roads between plots of land, which should be paid for by people who want to drive on those roads. 
  

I used to be burnsred . . .
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Jeff
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Re: Anarchy Vs Theft by Government
Reply #15 - Feb 4th, 2018 at 7:11pm
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SnarkySack wrote on Feb 4th, 2018 at 6:58pm:
Sorry, I either confused your position with Jeff's or misinterpreted yours.
You're starting to show signs of being ODD.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Anarchy Vs Theft by Government
Reply #16 - Feb 4th, 2018 at 7:15pm
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SnarkySack wrote on Feb 4th, 2018 at 6:58pm:
So my point is that since government is the only organization that can't grant the power to own land...
More and more ODD...

No matter, I'll make allowances.

Are you also rejecting ownership rights in minerals and such beneath the land? So that when people started pumping oil out from under their land, it wasn't their oil? Or when they dug coal out of their land and sold it, it wasn't their coal?
  
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SnarkySack
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Re: Anarchy Vs Theft by Government
Reply #17 - Feb 4th, 2018 at 10:39pm
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Jeff wrote on Feb 4th, 2018 at 7:15pm:
More and more ODD...

No matter, I'll make allowances.

Are you also rejecting ownership rights in minerals and such beneath the land? So that when people started pumping oil out from under their land, it wasn't their oil? Or when they dug coal out of their land and sold it, it wasn't their coal?


First of all, I don't reject the right to own land.  I only state correctly that ownership of land requires government. 

Absent government, if a person were to drill oil out of unowned land, that oil would belong to him.  Just like in tribal people who had no government, a person could still own the bows and arrows and stone axes he made with materials he picked up from the ground.

The beauty of land ownership is that the land owner can charge oil drillers for the right to take the oil out of his land. 
  

I used to be burnsred . . .
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Jeff
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Re: Anarchy Vs Theft by Government
Reply #18 - Feb 5th, 2018 at 6:47am
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SnarkySack wrote on Feb 4th, 2018 at 10:39pm:
First of all, I don't reject the right to own land.  I only state correctly that ownership of land requires government. 


Governments can secure property rights by recording them and enforcing them, but the Right to own property precedes government and is not dependent on government.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Anarchy Vs Theft by Government
Reply #19 - Feb 5th, 2018 at 6:56am
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SnarkySack wrote on Feb 4th, 2018 at 10:39pm:
The beauty of land ownership is that the land owner can charge oil drillers for the right to take the oil out of his land. 
Does ownership of the oil depend on government too?

People had clear title to land long before anyone knew oil was useful or valuable, and the sale of mineral rights separate from the land or sale of land separate from the mineral rights was already well established before the U.S. was created.

You keep claiming that ownership of land is "different", and I'm just trying to establish if you think ownership of oil is also "different" in the same way, that no one can own oil without government. Is that also your claim?

How about topsoil? Is it possible to own topsoil without government?
  
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